Can't Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

CapnJim

CapnJim

Well-Known Member
Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

I've a student who is over from Germany trying to get his PPL. I have been training him for some time, so I think he's grandfathered in to not having to register, but with so many stops, starts, waivers, and postpoments of these rules I don't know $h*t or wind my watch. I'm pretty sure I don't have to register till Jan 18 05, but this German fellow is going back to Der Vaterland in a couple of weeks, and I don't want his trip to be for nought.

I tried calling the FSDO, who gave me a number for TSA, who told me they weren't returning calls due to the call volume, and won't you please direct your questions to this email adress, which will be answered NEVER. Wonderful. I scoured faa.gov, tsa.gov, and every website remotely related to the two, and came up with bupkis.

Does anyone have the straight dope on this nonsense?
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

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Does anyone have the straight dope on this nonsense?

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No, they don't....and that's the whole idea. I think the TSA wants to keep it vague.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Typical!

Here's some new rules that you have to absolutely follow!

-Can I see them?

Nah, I'll get back to you, but if you don't follow them, we'll wax your butt!
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Call the TSA and report some made up person.

Tell 'em you know someone who is not in compliance with their new rule, and you want them to go after that person
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We had a couple guys come into the FBO and take writtens for CFI ratings as we do the on field computer testing. Neither of them had even heard of this new TSA thing.

I printed out the 19 October 2004 TSA letter stating the exemptions, and left it sitting on the counter for others to review.

Stupid thing is, for citizens, I think the exemption is worse than the original rule. Originally, keep a copy of some stuff in a folder no one ever sees for 5 years. The exemption is certify, with endorsement, in the student logbook, AND in the instructor logbook, that you saw an official document. I'd rather put a couple of pieces of paper on a copier, than sign off my name saying something is official.

I read the alien student thing as being extended until 19 December, for someone who already has a certificate, and has already started training. If new though, they compliance started 20 October 2004 for the alien students. Fingerprints, $130fee, application form, acceptance of the application by the training provider, a few handstands and backflips, and poof, we'll all be much safer from those proven security threats in a 172.

TSA rule update via letter, 19 October
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

If he's already started trainnig he's good to go for the next 6 month from Oct 20th.

If he has a licence and is trainning now, he'll be good to go for the next 6 month from Dec 20th.

He cannot go for a new rating during those 6 month, only finnish one that has previously been started

The rule will however change again.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

I've solved the problem for myself. I'm just asking every student, current or new, for a blood sample.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Josh- Great idea, if I could get a human on the phone..
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Paul- Thanks for the info- where'd you find it?
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

I've been going to the AOPA site to figure out heads or tails of the new rule.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html

But I haven't heard of the 6 months from Dec 20th though...

If your friend from Germany doesn't have already US pilot certificate, then I understand that he needs to send in his info package, $130, etc.. effective on the 20th.

Otherwise any alien who already has a US pilot certificate can wait until Dec 20 while they sort this out.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Yeah, that was kinda my point.

All this stupid craziness. And if someone 'violates' this new rule, no one will ever find out. Heck, can't even get a clear answer to rule questions, let alone report someone. We all know what a huge security threat all GA aircraft must be, simply because they are not stuck with the rubber to the road like all those safe land based vehicles out there.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Yeah, it's a knee-jerk (three years later) feel-good measure. Absolutely worthless to security, and a burden on GA businesses.

Thanks for all the info guys, I hope I can get this fellow trained and on his way without running afoul of the feds, but if not, I guess there's always waiting tables.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

As stupid as this new rule is, it's not difficult to comply. All you need to do is ask your students to bring in a copy of their birth certificate or passport, make a photo copy of the document, give them a logbook endorsement, copy the endorsement for your files, and keep them for five years. As far as the student not being a U.S. citizen, then you need to send in the required info along with the $130.00 fee. When the TSA makes a determination, they let you know if training can continue. I have had students that do not like the idea of having these documents copied and held for five years, but that’s the rule for now, and so far they have not quit because of this concern. What really gets me is that you can’t use a driver’s license here in California for I.D. purposes because they gave them to illegal aliens a while ago, but a birth certificate is a valid form of identification even if it is probably the easiest type of identification to forge.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

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As far as the student not being a U.S. citizen, then you need to send in the required info along with the $130.00 fee. When the TSA makes a determination, they let you know if training can continue.

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But...it's not our job!
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

No endorsement required, if citizens, if you keep the copy for 5 years. No keeping for 5 years, if citizen, if you give and endorsement. Either way, a pain in the ass, and I don't like to endorse things I'm not sure about. Like you mentioned, how do I know what any birth certificate looks really? Or a passport for that matter. Don't even ask me about green cards, I know how easy those are to forge. Let the feds figure it all out from the medical application. Just require that, and actually do something with that info, rather than then just looking at the checkbox people have been checking on every medical for years.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

And WHY do instructors have to keep an endorsement? Why do we have to keep ANYTHING proving citizenship for 5 years? Simple. If some slick terrorist comes up with a forgery (which he almost certainly will) then when the unthinkable happens, TSA can do the old Crusty the Clown "don't blame me! I didn't do it", and hang the hapless instructor out on a cross for somehow not following regulations.

It's nothing but a CYA measure from a flegling federal administration trying to make a name for itself. Dollars to donughts says that in the next few weeks they will find some token "violation" by some poor sap and then parade him down the streets in chains preaching about what a wonderful job of securing the nation they're doing. Meanwhile, instructors are being forced by law to take the role of border guards.

<puts on hip waders and sour expression>
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

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Meanwhile, instructors are being forced by law to take the role of border guards.

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And I've got no problem with this, just train me and PAY me to do it!
If the government isn't going to pay for it, then it doesn't need to be done by the government. Let the flight schools/instructors figure their own way to take the foreign citizen risk if you are not going to pay them to do it the new way.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Unfortunately almost all laws and regulations that are inacted do not compensate for the costs involved.

For example the government doesn't reimburse either the auto manufacturer or purchaser for the cost of emission controls on vehicles. And they don't pay restaurants for the cost of meeting cleanliness regulations. And they don't pay baby clothes manufacturers to meet the flammability requirements.

Did you know that there are many companies put out of business every year by the cost of implementing new government regulations? Just the result of enacting laws and regulations for the "greater good".
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

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Just the result of enacting laws and regulations for the "greater good".

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That's the thing - there is no greater good here.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

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Just the result of enacting laws and regulations for the "greater good".

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That's the thing - there is no greater good here.

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I'm with you. This regulation is just more knee-jerk bureaucratic self-justification.

They will, however, be using the "greater good" argument to try to justify this new "anti-terrorist" BS.

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Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

Yup, and they'll probably fry the careers of a couple of good CFI's to make themselves look good too. CFI's have almost no capability to defend themselves, so they're easy prey for this propped-up department.
 
Re: Can\'t Make Head or Tails of the TSA Rules.

There's some more commentary from AvWeb today:
[ QUOTE ]
Credentials Slow In Coming, Says Sporty's...

If one of the most recognizable flight-training institutions in the U.S. has trouble complying with the new alien training rule, what must that mean for the thousands of independent instructors and small flight schools across the country? So wonders Eric Radtke, CEO of Sporty's Academy Inc. and the recipient of the necessary credentials to teach foreign students several days after the rule went into effect. "We finally got ours last week," Radtke told AVweb. He said the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) left vetting the qualifications of flying schools to local Flight Standards District Offices (FSDOs) -- without telling the FSDOs. "Everyone is having the exact same problem," he said. In Sporty's case, it meant a three-week wait for the right paperwork (cyber paperwork, at that) and maybe some missed customers. To apply for flight training, a foreign student must select from a pull-down menu of approved schools and Sporty's wasn't there until a few days after the rule took effect on Oct. 20. Radtke said his main beef, however, is the sudden way the rule was implemented, without public input and without consultation with the training industry. "It was kind of a shock," he said. The rule was announced on Sept. 20 and schools were given a month to comply. To further complicate things, the TSA has issued several amendments (good ones, according to most in the industry) but it's helpful to have a roadmap, such as the one put together by the National Business Aviation Association.

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There's more here: AvWeb 11/3/04 Issue

Here's a link to the NBAA *roadmap* the article talks about: Flight Training Candidate Checks Program (FTCCP)

So.....what are all you CFI's doing at this point? Is anyone doing the checks and documentation yet? What are your company owners saying about this new rule, or how are they interpreting it?
 
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