Canadair Crash at ASE / Aspen Eagle, Colorado

[Stone Cold]

Maybe this is the same story, about a Lear 60 at Aspen....but about a year ago I was there and saw a semi-crashed up Lear 60 being taken away on a flatbed trailer. I heard from the line crew that they executed a go-around, and then made a tight left hand pattern to come around for another attempt at landing. Then they turned base to final over the numbers, landed cockeyed, bounced it, collapsed the landing gear, and slid off the runway.

Is that the same story you're talking about? Just wondering.

No, not the same story.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I don't know... Same could be said for SUN, MMH, etc.

You don't take the -200s in there, do you? There's a reason for that. No leading edge devices, I suspect.

We went in empty once and a buddy and I ghost-flew the approach. IMS, there is absolutely no possible way you can safely make the runway from MDA at the MAP on the LOC/DME in a bitchjet, even if you're riding the shaker when you start down. I think it's something like 2000ft in ~two and a half miles you have to lose, while remaining at ref. It's laughable. Or, you know, it would be, except.

 

[mikecweb]

 

[Jimflyfast]

"Sir, this is my last warning. Go back to your seat and remain there for the rest of the flight, or I'll have the authorities meet us upon landing and you will be arrested on federal charges of interfering with a crew member. Is that clear?"

And that will be the very last flight you make in the corporate world. Sucks, but that is not how you talk to passengers. Sounds great and tough on a webboard, but in real life that will be the end of your career.

 

[pilotmec]

Something to ask a pax who is pressuring the pilots to get in somewhere........."I'm not comfortable going in there right now, are you sure you want to follow me in"?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Depends on who you're flying for, I'd rather imagine.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Jeebus

 

[Screaming_Emu]

You never know.

Exactly why a results based way of looking at stuff won't always work. Just because something worked, doesn't mean you won't get in trouble for it. Conscientious adherence. Somebody asks what you were doing, you can pull out the book and show them.

 

[Mark815]

This is insane! I hate jumping on the speculation bandwagon, but if it was really a 20+kt tailwind situation with a missed approach or two, where is the backbone in the crew? It definitely seems like the guys upfront weren't in charge like they should have been.

You guys are scaring the crap out of me.

I've only been doing this for a few years now, and all I'll say is I'm glad I work for a company that backs up decisions I've made. With the really irate pax, sometimes telling him "I can try, but I can't guarantee the safety of you or your family" shuts them right up.

That's all good until you get a Pax with a SE Private that thinks he is Chuck Yeager, and won't leave the cockpit cause he is backseat flyin'. Part 91 flying at its finest....

That's really the worst. I've had a couple who were actually VERY polite and wanted to check out the cockpi, and even apologized for bothering us, but I've also had the complete opposite. They know just enough to be dangerous.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

And that will be the very last flight you make in the corporate world. Sucks, but that is not how you talk to passengers. Sounds great and tough on a webboard, but in real life that will be the end of your career.

Uh, no.

We WERE talking about a charter passenger that was up your rear end to make it into an airport under conditions that weren't suitable. What I typed would be my response. I fly with the owner of the charter company under which we operate. He'd stand behind my decision and attitude, even if they were his top clients. A lost client is far more favorable than a lost life or ten.

If it were my boss, under Part 91...well, it wouldn't be my boss, because he's not a jackass and has an even lesser tolerance for poor weather. But, if I did work for someone that pushed me, I'd say "No, I'm not even trying it. We'll land somewhere that's more suitable. Whether or not you want me to fly you out at a later time is up to you."

I've done it before (@mikecweb and @auw2fly can both vouch and have done so themselves when working with me), and I'll do it again.

I can find another corporate job...easily.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

In the Learjet, fully configured at red table we would fly the approach at ref plus additives. Once the field was in sight we would go to idle, pitch down and accelerate to 145-150 knots (max flap speed at full flaps). This gave you the descent rate to get down, but left you with the drag you needed to slow and spool up once on a "normal" glide path in the valley.

There was never anything fun or sporty about it. Instead you were left with the sick feeling after every landing that you just got away with something.

 

[TC_ABM]

And that will be the very last flight you make in the corporate world. Sucks, but that is not how you talk to passengers. Sounds great and tough on a webboard, but in real life that will be the end of your career.

So, as a dude about to enter this world from an environment where the pilot decision is never questioned, when do I choose my limits over the passers limits. Even if/when the passenger isn't the payer for a/an operation/mission that isn't scheduled 121?




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[Jimflyfast]

Uh, no.

We WERE talking about a charter passenger that was up your rear end to make it into an airport under conditions that weren't suitable. What I typed would be my response. I fly with the owner of the charter company under which we operate. He'd stand behind my decision and attitude, even if they were his top clients.

If it were my boss, under Part 91...well, it wouldn't be my boss, because he's not a jackass and has an even lesser tolerance for poor weather. But, if I did work for someone that pushed me, I'd say "No, I'm not even trying it. We'll land somewhere that's more suitable. Whether or not you want me to fly you out at a later time is up to you."

I can find another corporate job...easily.

There are much better ways of stating it. I would imagine that at 90% of the companies in the world you would be looking for a job if you actually said what you claim you would say.

Been there, done that, and you can handle it respectfully without being a jackass, and threatening to have a passenger arrested is being a jackass

 

[Jimflyfast]

So, as a dude about to enter this world from an environment where the pilot decision is never questioned, when do I choose my limits over the passers limits. Even if/when the passenger isn't the payer for a/an operation/mission that isn't scheduled 121?


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You always choose your limits. What I was replying to was his "badass" tone he was supposedly going to take. Tell them what is going to happen, but you dont go threatening to have passengers arrested.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

There are much better ways of stating it. I would imagine that at 90% of the companies in the world you would be looking for a job if you actually said what you claim you would say.

Been there, done that, and you can handle it respectfully without being a jackass, and threatening to have a passenger arrested is being a jackass

How else is there to state it? I didn't say I'd do it on the first instance, but after 30 minutes worth of pestering you, you HAVE to take a firm stance. "Pretty please, sir, please stop asking us" ain't going to get the point across.

I have about as long a fuse as someone in this job can possibly have, but when it burns to that point, I'm telling the passenger exactly what I typed.

 

[🦈💜]

And that will be the very last flight you make in the corporate world. Sucks, but that is not how you talk to passengers. Sounds great and tough on a webboard, but in real life that will be the end of your career.

Perhaps this is why I have zero desire to enter the corporate pilot world—obsequity doesn't suit me. I would be proud to fired for that, and I would use the story in interviews as a gauge of what companies I'd be willing to work for.

Someone (I wish I could recall who, but someone on here) said it best a few months ago when they said: "It's our goal to get our passengers to their destination. It's our job to keep them alive." (paraphrasing, emphasis mine)

It's a very succinct way to put it, and I think it should almost be a placard on the instrument panel.

-Fox

 

[Jimflyfast]

How else is there to state it? I didn't say I'd do it on the first instance, but after 30 minutes worth of pestering you, you HAVE to take a firm stance. "Pretty please, sir, please stop asking us" ain't going to get the job done.

Take a firm stance and do what you need to do, but I am sure you can come up with some way other than threatening to have them arrested. As someone who has been in the business 20+ years, I have seen the best and the worst of passengers and have never had to raise my voice or threaten them.

I was in no way implying you should let them talk you into something you arent comfortable with. What I was objecting to was the tone you think you would take with a customer. But go ahead and try it sometime and let me know how it works for you

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Sounds like I am very lucky to be flying 91 corporate where I am now. If we can't make it we will tell the pax and alternatives will be found. Sounds like some pilots need to do the right thing instead of buckling under pressure. I think the passengers will be thankful as well that you didn't smear them across a mountainside attempting what they wanted you to do.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Take a firm stance and do what you need to do, but I am sure you can come up with some way other than threatening to have them arrested. As someone who has been in the business 20+ years, I have seen the best and the worst of passengers and have never had to raise my voice or threaten them.

I was in no way implying you should let them talk you into something you arent comfortable with. What I was objecting to was the tone you think you would take with a customer. But go ahead and try it sometime and let me know how it works for you

Ok. Last try.

I'm not talking about using that tone right off the bat. I'm talking about using that tone if they absolutely, positively will not accept the fact that landing where they wish is not going to happen. Some of the passenger attitudes discussed in this thread would meet those criteria for me.

 

[gne in prog]

Sounds like I am very lucky to be flying 91 corporate where I am now. If we can't make it we will tell the pax and alternatives will be found. Sounds like some pilots need to do the right thing instead of buckling under pressure. I think the passengers will be thankful as well that you didn't smear them across a mountainside attempting what they wanted you to do.

I don't think you are lucky. I've flown 91,135, and fractional for nearly 15 years. I've had my share of interesting pax, but I've never had to threaten someone with arrest or had anyone challange decisions. Most are reasonable and have a sense of self preservation.