Can you fly IFR in class Golf?

[subpilot]

Just to make sure I understand:
To fly in conditions below VFR minimums in class G, only an instrument rating is needed, but not an ATC clearance because ATC does not control aircraft in class G. An ATC clearance is needed to fly in conditions below VFR minumums only when in controlled airspace. Is that correct?

Basically yes. You also need an IFR equipped aircraft and need to have the ability to self navigate without relying on visual references.

 

[tjvpa28]

Thanks guys!

 

[tjvpa28]

One more question, to which I think the answer is obvious but just to make sure. If a flight is to take place only in class G, never to enter controlled airspace, in IMC, would you still be required to file an IFR flight plan? I would think not since ATC cannot issue an IFR clearance.

 

[Blackhawk]

One more question, to which I think the answer is obvious but just to make sure. If a flight is to take place only in class G, never to enter controlled airspace, in IMC, would you still be required to file an IFR flight plan? I would think not since ATC cannot issue an IFR clearance.

Not required and they can't issue you a clearance. There are examples of where this is possible- even above 10000' MSL.

 

[PetrolBurner]

One more question, to which I think the answer is obvious but just to make sure. If a flight is to take place only in class G, never to enter controlled airspace, in IMC, would you still be required to file an IFR flight plan? I would think not since ATC cannot issue an IFR clearance.

That is incredible...I never realized that was possible (or cared to be honest) but I think I get the difference between radar and airspace. Thanks for the collective knowledge!

 

[Fly_Unity]

One more question, to which I think the answer is obvious but just to make sure. If a flight is to take place only in class G, never to enter controlled airspace, in IMC, would you still be required to file an IFR flight plan? I would think not since ATC cannot issue an IFR clearance.

You are correct, however this would be almost impossible in most of the country UNLESS your flying in class G that goes up to 14,500 MSL. You still gotta obey all IFR rules including minimum IFR altitude rules.

There has been a case where a guy got a ticket for trying to fly in class G airspace without a clearance below 1200 AGL

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

There has been a case where a guy got a ticket for trying to fly in class G airspace without a clearance below 1200 AGL

There is at least one case that involves a pilot taking off IFR in Class G without a clearance. The NTSB decided that doing so, at least in situations where the activity may tend to pose a safety risk to other operations, is careless and reckless even though not specifically prohibited by a FAR.

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3935.PDF

 

[Landis]

There is at least one case that involves a pilot taking off IFR in Class G without a clearance. The NTSB decided that doing so, at least in situations where the activity may tend to pose a safety risk to other operations, is careless and reckless even though not specifically prohibited by a FAR.

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3935.PDF

Wow. I found a footnote in that document that seems to lay it out clearly:

Moreover, our decision in Administrator v. Vance, 5 NTSB 1037, provided constructive, if not actual, notice that a takeoff into uncontrolled airspace under IFR without an ATC clearance constitutes an independent violation of section 91.13(a).

So, it would appear to me that although it's not against the rules to be IFR without a clearance in uncontrolled airspace, the fact that the airspace is not controlled means flying in the clouds is careless and reckless.

Got to love the Catch-22's.

 

[subpilot]

If the FAA doesn't want people taking off IFR into uncontrolled airspace without a clearance then why don't they make a freakin rule on it so that we don't need to research case rulings to understand what the administration really wants? Also, I don't understand how they can bust people for violating a rule that is not really a rule!

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

So, it would appear to me that although it's not against the rules to be IFR without a clearance in uncontrolled airspace, the fact that the airspace is not controlled means flying in the clouds is careless and reckless.

It's not clear to me that it's automatic. My read is that it's situational.

Is going 30 careless and reckless in a car?

 

[Landis]

It's not clear to me that it's automatic. My read is that it's situational.

I agree with you that it SHOULD be situational. But that's not what I'm reading from this ruling. Another quote:

And furthermore, this type of takeoff "also create the hazard of a collision with other aircraft. The see and avoid concept would be nullified and there would be no other means of assuring separation from other aircraft."

See and avoid is just plain impossible when operating IFR in IMC in uncontrolled airspace.

 

[subpilot]

This is why there is a VFR weather minimum for G airspace... to keep the "see and avoid" people out of the sky while you are flying in IMC.

 

[Landis]

This is why there is a VFR weather minimum for G airspace... to keep the "see and avoid" people out of the sky while you are flying in IMC.

But what's to stop two IFR aircraft from attempting to occupy the same airspace in uncontrolled IMC?

 

[subpilot]

But what's to stop two IFR aircraft from attempting to occupy the same airspace in uncontrolled IMC?

You can't regulate everything. I suppose the fact that you are in class G goes with the big sky/small plane theory where a busier environment would have controlled airspace and radar to mitage this possibility.

 

[Landis]

You can't regulate everything. I suppose the fact that you are in class G goes with the big sky/small plane theory where a busier environment would have controlled airspace and radar to mitage this possibility.

Again, agreed. But how is this not careless and/or reckless from the FAA/NTSB point of view? Especially given the quotes in the NTSB judgment quoted earlier.

 

[subpilot]

Again, agreed. But how is this not careless and/or reckless from the FAA/NTSB point of view? Especially given the quotes in the NTSB judgment quoted earlier.

I wish I could understand how lawyers and judges think. Couldn't said pilot turn this around saying the FAA is careless and wreckless by not providing safety for airplanes in class G? haha

 

[Ayork62493]

That is a common misconception, or the inverse of that is. There are many places out here in Iowa and Nebraska that you are out of that radar environment even though you are a couple thousand feet in the air and in E Airspace.

This, countless times they love me on radar as I'm flying from OMA-MLI or quite frankly anywhere that there are not cities. I'd love flight following, but there's no radar for it out there unfortunatly.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

This, countless times they love me on radar as I'm flying from OMA-MLI or quite frankly anywhere that there are not cities. I'd love flight following, but there's no radar for it out there unfortunatly.

There's no radar and then there's below radar. There are few parts of the country where radar wont see you - if you are high enough - but plenty in more remote areas where even MEAs are below radar contact.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I wish I could understand how lawyers and judges think. Couldn't said pilot turn this around saying the FAA is careless and wreckless by not providing safety for airplanes in class G? haha

As you said, you can't regulate everything. Nor would you really want them to.

 

[jbizon]

Not sure why I need to know this, but it's on a gouge sheet for an interview and I can't find the answer anywhere...

1.) "It is perfectly legal to fly in UNCONTROLLED airspace without and IFR flight plan or clearance. In fact, no clearance is required (or even possible) to operate IFR in Class G airspace. Therefore, when receiving an IFR clearance on the ground at an uncontrolled airport, the clearance will usually include the phrase "upon entering controlled airspace..." (91.173). You are, in fact, operating in Class G without a clearance until you get above to 700-foot transition altitude EVERY TIME you take off with a void time! Your IFR clearance does not actually begin until you enter the Class E airspace."

2.) "91.173 states only that "no person may operate an aircraft in 'CONTROLLED airspace' under IFR UNLESS that person has filed a IFR flight plan, and received the appropriate ATC clearance." It says nothing about operating in UNCONTROLLED airspace, so the regulations does not apply.

3.) In UNCONTROLLED airspace, no flight plan or ATC clearance is required (or possible to get). You can still operateunder Instrument Flight Rules without a flight plan or any clearance from ATC. You must be instrument current and the aircraft must be approved for IFR flight. You must cruise at an appropriate IFR altitude (91.179), adhere to minimum altitudes for IFR flight (91.177), and comply with the other IFR requirements of 91 subpart B that apply to IFR such as fuel reserves and VOR checks, however he altimeter, ModeC and static system checks of 91.411 need NOT be current."

4.) "You do NOT have to maintain cloud separations (in Class G) because the flight is being conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, which do NOT require could separation."

5.) "Part 135 or 121 operators are NOT allowed to operate "IFR" in Class G terminal (airport) airspace UNLESS the airport has WEATHER REPORTING."


QUOTED FROM "EVERYTHING EXPLAINED FOR THE PROFESSIONAL PILOT-7TH EDITION" PAGE 7