Can people afford to flight train?

Two words for you: Mo Gas!

We have 4 C-172s STCed for MoGas. They rent for $75-85 per hr, depending on the size of the engine (O-320 vs O-360). They are F, H and P models with IFR GPS and steam gauges. Instruction is another $30/hr. I didn't realize what a bargin it really was.

I've wondered why more schools/owners don't do this. The national average for mogas is around $3.50 and will definitely drop if crude continues to sink. If we froze everything up right now the operator could save $10-15/hr by switching to mogas. If the plane flies 50hr/month that's >$500/month or $5,000/year/airplane. How much does the STC cost? Do you guys use your own truck, or does your field have mogas for sale?

I'm not convinced the explosion in rental prices is just from fuel, though. Even at $6/g, that accounts for maybe a $40/hr increase in operating costs over the past 15 years. The honest operaters reflect approximately this increase...the guys charging $180/hr for a shiny new 172 have just managed to convince most people that a 2008 Cessna is worth twice the rental price of its 40 year old equivalent.

Either that or insurance and mx costs have increased dramatically as well?
 
Well, was sitting in the FBO today and the owner comes in and lets us know gas went up. I said okay, how much? He said $1.00, gas is now $6.85 here at Bowman in Louisville. That takes the price of a 172 wet with instructor to $196, and wet in a 152 with instructor to $156. With rates like that, who can afford this anymore? People are coming to inquire about training and the sticker shock on their face is amazing. Anybody else feeling this kind of pinch?

I'd tell him he needs to lower his rates.

$156/hr for a 150 w/instructor?? Give me a break!! That's what I'm paying for a 2001 172SP with instructor here...and I thought that was high!

A 150 burns 4-5 gph. At today's fuel prices, a 150 should be about in the $75/hr range vs. what one was going for when I last flew one about 6 years ago. The schools were making money back then too...

Seriously, if you don't step up and tell these folks that ordinary people can't afford it, they'll just keep jacking up the rates. Most of these outfits have gotten so used to people taking out loans they've almost completely abandoned the recreational flyer. If hiring at the airlines doesn't pick up, the pro-pilot gravy train is going to run out and they're not going to have anyone to fall back on.

I'm sure the jump in avgas is some more Ike hysteria. I don't know if the FBOs around here were already well stocked, but prices haven't budged around here...knock on wood. However oil is back in the low 90s, so expect the price of avgas to drop back down relatively soon.
 
I've wondered why more schools/owners don't do this. The national average for mogas is around $3.50 and will definitely drop if crude continues to sink. If we froze everything up right now the operator could save $10-15/hr by switching to mogas. If the plane flies 50hr/month that's >$500/month or $5,000/year/airplane. How much does the STC cost? Do you guys use your own truck, or does your field have mogas for sale?

I'm not convinced the explosion in rental prices is just from fuel, though. Even at $6/g, that accounts for maybe a $40/hr increase in operating costs over the past 15 years. The honest operaters reflect approximately this increase...the guys charging $180/hr for a shiny new 172 have just managed to convince most people that a 2008 Cessna is worth twice the rental price of its 40 year old equivalent.

Either that or insurance and mx costs have increased dramatically as well?

One word. Ethanol.

Remember that the engine and fuel system technology in these aircraft is about 50-60 years old. Fuel lines, fuel tanks, etc., ain't compatible with the stuff, even in small quantities evidently. With the rush to put ethanol in every grade of pump gas across the nation, that is quickly evaporating as an alternative. Truth be told, 93-95 octane mogas could probably replace avgas for all but the highest horsepower piston aircraft, but its going to take engine manufacturers bringing their designs out of the 1940s to do it.

If we love flying, we need to start putting pressure on our state legislators to ban the use of ethanol in premium fuel, not only as an alternative to avgas, but also so older power equipment, ATVs, boats, etc., have an ethanol free source of fuel, since most of those are not made to run ethanol either.

Unfortunately, I don't think most of the folks running flight schools and/or FBOs are the best businessmen in the world. Many of them have this attitude that everyone that flys an airplane is loaded, and just constantly raises their rates to keep their margins where they were, which drives off business...and consequently means there are fewer people to divide their fixed costs between...which leads them to having to raise their rates again. They're going to have to accept a smaller margin in the short run to get more people flying the airplanes.

But as I said in my other post, I think the chief culprit was easy access to cheap credit. Renters really didn't care what they were paying so the FBOs and flying schools just raised their rates to where they were making a generous profit. I just think it is going to come back to bit them in the butt unless they start making it more affordable for the cash customer to fly again.
 
I have figured out a way to continue with my training. I sold the kids to a child labor camp. :eek: I hope they like it there. :bandit:

Honestly it is a big financial stress, I am paying for it as I go...
 
Besides a regulation banning all GA or oil going completely parabolic, there will always be people who flight train. Things could be twice as expensive as they are right now and people would still fly for fun.
 
Besides a regulation banning all GA or oil going completely parabolic, there will always be people who flight train. Things could be twice as expensive as they are right now and people would still fly for fun.

Speak for yourself.

There is always a point where someone will say it isn't worth it anymore. 5-6 years ago, I'd have to sign up a week or two ahead of time to be able to get more than about a one hour block for an airplane. Now I can stroll in just about any time I want and book one all day if I wanted to, just because it has gotten so expensive. My uncle sold off his Arrow because maintenance and avgas were getting too expensive for the amount of time he flew it on a yearly basis.

Recreational flying is on the cusp of dying off in this country if a concerted effort isn't made to make it more affordable to the masses again. LSAs are being touted as the solution, but they're still $100k+ new. REAL people can't afford to buy those. I know the days of $20k new airplanes is long gone, but is it really that much of a stretch to build a $60-70k airplane that can actually carry a couple of people?
 
Even with a 50k aircraft real people can't afford to operate a airplane. Between hanger fees, fuel and mx, real people can't fork over 2,400 at the drop of a hat when a mag goes out none the less 20k for a engine rebuild.
 
Even with a 50k aircraft real people can't afford to operate a airplane. Between hanger fees, fuel and mx, real people can't fork over 2,400 at the drop of a hat when a mag goes out none the less 20k for a engine rebuild.

In order to get to the $50k airplane you'd have to design an engine that doesn't rely on technology from the 1940s. Even the fuel injection used on piston engines today dates from the 1950s. Working on one of those engines is like going through a time warp!

Give me redundant coil pack style ignition fed from independent and redundant generators (put them where the mags were) any day over a magneto. It would be drastically more reliable (fewer moving parts) and a hell of a lot less expensive to build and service (solid state module(s) that can run a static advance if something fails). The lack of innovation (probably thanks to the FAA and lawyers) in this area of GA is just astounding.
 
I've said it before, but I'll say it again--we, as an industry, do a lousy job of showing people the value of flying.

People spend ridiculous amounts of money on all sorts of things...luxury cars, boats, vacations to Europe, whatever--things that in my opinion, wouldn't bring me half as much pleasure as flying. People have discretionary income and want to do something fun, simple as that.

Except at a lot of airports, as soon as somebody new inquires about flying, they're basically told, either directly or indirectly, that flying sucks and isn't worth it.

How many times do prospective pilots hear about how peaceful it is to do touch and goes at sunset in the summer after a long day at work? Or how amazing it is to cruise past 9,000 foot mountain peaks off your wing out west, drifting over land that hasn't felt human footsteps in years? What about the satisfaction of putting a huge grin on a kid's face as they lift off on their first plane ride? The list could go on.

Oh wait, that stuff isn't worth anything, with gas prices being so high and insurance coverage going through the roof, and there's nothing fun to do anymore...grumble grumble grumble...
 
Yeah, steep is an understatement, but it's not really the owner's fault. We rent everything dry so if you can find your own gas GO GET IT! The 152 is $55 dry so the rest is gas and $44 for the instructor. But at Bowman, there's a huge airport tax that adds about $10 an hour to everything we do so it's not all price gouging.
 
Hey, I'm not arguing that it isn't FUN. Hell, I got behind the controls of an airplane for the first time in nearly 6 years and it was an absolute blast. I got my medical renewed and am going up with an instructor as required to get proficient again. I've already got all three of my nieces clambering to go flying with their uncle as well as several of my other in-laws and friends. So I'm going to fly again as long as long as it stays in my budget.

I'm just arguing that people are rapidly getting priced out of the hobby and nobody really seems to care. I see alot of complacency, indifference and as you put it, grumbling, but nobody really seems to want to do anything about it.
 
1.8 hours on the hobbs, .2 hours of ground instruction. 11 landing attempts..... $319

.....finally getting one or two good landings....priceless.

These are prices in the Denver area, BTW
 
I have figured out a way to continue with my training. I sold the kids to a child labor camp. :eek: I hope they like it there. :bandit:

Honestly it is a big financial stress, I am paying for it as I go...


:laff: LMAO. great picture! I'm sure they do like it there if that is the camp at break time.
 
Besides a regulation banning all GA or oil going completely parabolic, there will always be people who flight train. Things could be twice as expensive as they are right now and people would still fly for fun.

Yeah, one fun hour a year just to get it out of their system. Fun... few cases. For training ...never unless your John Travolta.
 
I'm just arguing that people are rapidly getting priced out of the hobby and nobody really seems to care. I see alot of complacency, indifference and as you put it, grumbling, but nobody really seems to want to do anything about it.

Well what do you propose?
 
I'm just arguing that people are rapidly getting priced out of the hobby and nobody really seems to care. I see alot of complacency, indifference and as you put it, grumbling, but nobody really seems to want to do anything about it.

Nobody seems to care?

Really?

I think a lot of people care, but these same people are huge supporters of the free market theory.

Nothing one, or two, or a large collective of grumbling poor pilots who are being priced out of the industry can do to change it.

Stuff costs money, and things are only getting more expensive. When the return on the investment of your flight training is ridiculously small, what motivation is there for anyone to want to make a concerted effort to improve the affordability of flight training / General aviation?

I personally feel that an effort should be made at protecting the ability of professional aviators to earn a livable wage is much more important than trying to make sure flight training is cheap.
 
Speak for yourself.
I didn't say you or your uncle or everybody at the place you rent airplanes will continue flying. I said "there will always be people". I was trying to answer the original question: "With rates like that, who can afford this anymore?". I'll be more direct. The rich. There is more wealth in this country, this world, than most people can fathom. If things get really bad, there will just be a shift. Someone will let their L-39 sit in the hangar and take out the Extra 300. Small airplanes owned by those who can't afford to operate them will sit.

I'm just saying take a big view of it all. If things get bad, this will be at least the third time general aviation has died.
 
We're at $183, 172SP and instructor, with fuel surcharge included.

Sucky? Yes. Is the quality of the training worth it when compared to cheaper schools around here? Absolutely.

Our 2006 SP G1000 is $160 with instructor. Got cheap gas here though. No question it is quality training.
 
I didn't say you or your uncle or everybody at the place you rent airplanes will continue flying. I said "there will always be people". I was trying to answer the original question: "With rates like that, who can afford this anymore?". I'll be more direct. The rich. There is more wealth in this country, this world, than most people can fathom. If things get really bad, there will just be a shift. Someone will let their L-39 sit in the hangar and take out the Extra 300. Small airplanes owned by those who can't afford to operate them will sit.

I'm just saying take a big view of it all. If things get bad, this will be at least the third time general aviation has died.

Wolfy, I gather that your position on this is partially informed by the fact that you reside where a large portion of the nation's wealth is concentrated. I have spent a LOT of time in your neck of the woods and the level of wealth there is astounding compared to a place like, say, Terrell, TX or Lake Charles, LA, or Macon, GA. So yeah - where you are, there are lots of rich people with money to throw at flying.

If I made the kind of salary that would allow me an equivalent lifestyle in Sonoma, Napa, or anywhere NEAR the Bay Area, you can bet your sweet bippy I'd move in a heartbeat.

Flying for fun is a luxury. And lately, I've met more ex-pilots than pilots. Invariably, the main reasons have been economic.
 
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