Can I still get hired by a legacy?

[journeytoalegacy]

Hey all, just wondering how bad my situation is.

I failed PPL, and a stage check in private. Instrument was fine. In commercial, I failed a stage check, and had a taxiing incident where I ran into a light pole and scraped paint on the end of a 172 wing. Also got into a car accident in commercial. To make matters worse, the FSDO guy I “have” to take my ride with has a 40% pass rate.

I’m doing all of this while pursuing a demanding degree outside aviation, which might be wearing me thin and causing some of this mess.

1. How bad does this all look for the airlines?
2. If I stay clean moving forward will I still be a competitive airlines (hopefully someday legacy) applicant once things pick up again?

 

[KLB]

Hey all, just wondering how bad my situation is.

I failed PPL, and a stage check in private. Instrument was fine. In commercial, I failed a stage check, and had a taxiing incident where I ran into a light pole and scraped paint on the end of a 172 wing. Also got into a car accident in commercial. To make matters worse, the FSDO guy I “have” to take my ride with has a 40% pass rate.

I’m doing all of this while pursuing a demanding degree outside aviation, which might be wearing me thin and causing some of this mess.

1. How bad does this all look for the airlines?
2. If I stay clean moving forward will I still be a competitive airlines (hopefully someday legacy) applicant once things pick up again?

It's possible. You have a lot to go between now and a airline interview. But TIGHTEN UP. Break the pattern that is beginning to show itself.

 

[EIR]

I do think you still have a chance at a legacy, I have a good friend who bent the airframe of a 767 and was hired by Delta 2 years later.

All your failures are opportunities to explain what you learned from the situation and how you have improved as a person/pilot. I think you need to pace yourself with training and your other college curriculum. Compounding stress is not good for your work performance or well being.

Good luck with your training. Also, talking with a career coach would help when you get to the interview process.

 

[Fearless]

It sounds like you are training at a University or Part 141 school. Suggestion: Prior to your next checkride, find a good independent CFI who is NOT affiliated with your school, and get an evaluation flight (say, a "practice" commercial or CFI checkride). He/She can identify any weak areas and provide suggestions for improvement. Sure, this will cost you some money and travel time, but could spare you the expense and potential career impact of a failed checkride.

 

[KLB]

It sounds like you are training at a University or Part 141 school. Suggestion: Prior to your next checkride, find a good independent CFI who is NOT affiliated with your school, and get an evaluation flight (say, a "practice" commercial or CFI checkride). He/She can identify any weak areas and provide suggestions for improvement. Sure, this will cost you some money and travel time, but could spare you the expense and potential career impact of a failed checkride.

If it is a university 141, there may be little freedom to forego or postpone a checkride unfortunately. It was one of things I disliked about the entire university 141 flight training system. I wasn't a customer (Even university students should technically be customes). I was a student and I had no input on things like checkride dates or choice of examiner. I ended having to do two checkrides with a examiner I did not like and considered unprofessional. And there was no way to hold any grievance against the guy without retribution.

If this poster is in a university training program that was similat to mine...then this poster really won't have that option.

 

[DE727UPS]

It could be that the demanding degree is taking some of your focus away. Sounds like it's not an aviation degree (how demanding can those be, even I have one, haha). You don't "have" to take a checkride with the 40% FSDO guy. I'd consider walking away from flying until you finish your degree. Ditch the 141 program. You'll have to have 250 hour for the commercial vs 190, so it will be more hours. You can save money by finding a 61 school which is less expensive, do a little bit of the safety pilot timebuilding thing, and you can do 50 hours towards a 61 commercial in an AATD sim. I've got one and could work with you if can get out to rural SE WA state. As to your future with the airlines, I think much can be overcome with time. Maybe you miss out on a job or two. You'll get the third one. Maybe you have to work a lower level job for a couple years to have the quals to make up for checkride failures. It can certainly be done. Maybe the hiring market will be so good you'll have no issues at all. It's hard to say for sure but I don't think I'd write the career off just yet. What are you getting a degree in?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It's possible. You have a lot to go between now and a airline interview. But TIGHTEN UP. Break the pattern that is beginning to show itself.

This.

Once is a fluke, twice is bad luck, three times is a habit and more is a pattern.

Also, @journeytoalegacy — I'd worry about walking before worrying about running, if you'll forgive the analogy. I know people with several failures early-on in their career that they've managed to overcome via keeping their records good at all of their subsequent events and jobs. When the time comes, make sure that you 1) disclose all of them to a prospective employer, and 2) consider engaging interview coaching to help put the best polish on the blemishes.

I like what @DE727UPS said about maybe stepping away while you work on your degree, too, with the note that at your level of experience and training, that can be an expensive proposition to re-establish your recency and proficiency. I started and stopped a few times in college (life happened), and it did cost more to come back than just going straight through, but you might be spreading yourself too thin.

 

[bike21]

If I'm reading this correctly, you've only failed one proper checkride correct? Stage check failures are basically moot, that's what they are designed for to catch you before the real test. So on that front you're not hindered yet by any means.

The car accident is nothing assuming you weren't grossly negligent and have points off your license or court proceedings because of it.

The light pole incident is probably nothing more than a learning point and you'd be surprised to hear how many of those types of things happen. Learn from it and move on.

But as others say, find the time & energy to focus on flying if that's your true goal. The road to becoming a professional pilot isn't something most folks can just do in their spare time. When I was teaching I could always easily spot the students who were 'phoning it in' vs the ones that were focused and serious. Take a break from one or the other if needed and come back stronger later.

 

[derg]

Hey all, just wondering how bad my situation is.

I failed PPL, and a stage check in private. Instrument was fine. In commercial, I failed a stage check, and had a taxiing incident where I ran into a light pole and scraped paint on the end of a 172 wing. Also got into a car accident in commercial. To make matters worse, the FSDO guy I “have” to take my ride with has a 40% pass rate.

I’m doing all of this while pursuing a demanding degree outside aviation, which might be wearing me thin and causing some of this mess.

1. How bad does this all look for the airlines?
2. If I stay clean moving forward will I still be a competitive airlines (hopefully someday legacy) applicant once things pick up again?

You’ll be fine as long as you put time between failure and when you’re looking.

The PPL failure won’t be an issue by the time you qualify to apply for the airlines.

If the FSDO has a 40% pass rate, well, there’s your challenge. Go knock their socks off with your performance.

1. Minor, with time, but be ready to answer “tell me what you learned”
2. Way too little information

 

[jhugz]

Your past is your past, prove to yourself and the interviewers that you’re a different person and you’ll land the job. I’m a CA at a legacy carrier and on the hiring team. I’ve also had two check ride failures (both being my CFI), a failed MV (in the 74), a ton of traffic violations (dumbass when I was younger), and a terrible GPA in college (which I later corrected the second time around). I put time between myself and these incidents and showed a positive trend for all my negative resume hits. In interviews I explained what I learned from my deficiencies and how I’ve changed. I got two legacy offers. You’ll be fine.

 

[Kingairer]

It could be that the demanding degree is taking some of your focus away. Sounds like it's not an aviation degree (how demanding can those be, even I have one, haha). You don't "have" to take a checkride with the 40% FSDO guy. I'd consider walking away from flying until you finish your degree. Ditch the 141 program. You'll have to have 250 hour for the commercial vs 190, so it will be more hours. You can save money by finding a 61 school which is less expensive, do a little bit of the safety pilot timebuilding thing, and you can do 50 hours towards a 61 commercial in an AATD sim. I've got one and could work with you if can get out to rural SE WA state. As to your future with the airlines, I think much can be overcome with time. Maybe you miss out on a job or two. You'll get the third one. Maybe you have to work a lower level job for a couple years to have the quals to make up for checkride failures. It can certainly be done. Maybe the hiring market will be so good you'll have no issues at all. It's hard to say for sure but I don't think I'd write the career off just yet. What are you getting a degree in?

Strongly disagree with leaving the structure of the 141 program to go to 61. Do not stop flying. You can easily do both. "lock in" as the kids say.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

A 141 stage check, is that anything more than a progress check? If you fail a 141 stage check, do you have any obligation to report it as a training failure? If the FAA doesn’t require it and the school isn’t compelled to test or retest, is it really a formal check ride?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

A 141 stage check, is that anything more than a progress check? If you fail a 141 stage check, do you have any obligation to report it as a training failure? If the FAA doesn’t require it and the school isn’t compelled to retest, is it really a formal check ride?

"Have you ever failed ANY checkrides or received an unsat on any phase/stage check, proficiency, or line check—civilian or military?" Caps in original, bold for emphasis.

Literally off the Air Line's AirlineApps.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

"Have you ever failed ANY checkrides or received an unsat on any phase/stage check, proficiency, or line check—civilian or military?" Caps in original, bold for emphasis.

Literally off the Air Line's AirlineApps.

Thanks for the citation. I’ve never actually applied for a job in aviation, let alone applied at a 121 carrier, so I wouldn’t know what’s on AirlineApps.

I guess if they call it a stage check it’s a stage check. I know what a stage check is in other training environments but there’s some oddities in some 141 programs.

Namely. If you don’t have to retest to continue training, what was it? I’ve heard students tell me that deficiencies are retested at the next stage check. Kinda odd.

I wasn’t minimizing the significance of a failed 141 check ride or suggesting folks lie on an application.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Thanks for the citation. I’ve never actually applied for a job in aviation, let alone applied at a 121 carrier, so I wouldn’t know what’s on AirlineApps.

This formulation, while specifically from us, is pretty common everywhere I’ve applied and boy howdy I’ve applied in places.

I guess if they call it a stage check it’s a stage check. I know what a stage check is in other training environments but there’s some oddities in some 141 programs.

I was 61 but we pretended to be 141 insofar as going up with someone else for the program “gates,” at least for my private, and you still had to be sat. Was there any record? Maybe buried in peat under the FBO. 141 is a whole different animal as regards this evidently (frankly I’m really happy I grew up Part 61 though not for this reason).

Namely. If you don’t have to retest to continue training, what was it?

A flying lesson by another name, I suppose.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

This formulation, while specifically from us, is pretty common everywhere I’ve applied and boy howdy I’ve applied in places.


I was 61 but we pretended to be 141 insofar as going up with someone else for the program “gates,” at least for my private, and you still had to be sat. Was there any record? Maybe buried in peat under the FBO. 141 is a whole different animal as regards this evidently (frankly I’m really happy I grew up Part 61 though not for this reason).


A flying lesson by another name, I suppose.

Yeah, 141 has some weirdness. Is a 141 EOC a stage check or a check ride? Kidding.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Thanks for the citation. I’ve never actually applied for a job in aviation, let alone applied at a 121 carrier, so I wouldn’t know what’s on AirlineApps.

I guess if they call it a stage check it’s a stage check. I know what a stage check is in other training environments but there’s some oddities in some 141 programs.

Namely. If you don’t have to retest to continue training, what was it? I’ve heard students tell me that deficiencies are retested at the next stage check. Kinda odd.

I wasn’t minimizing the significance of a failed 141 check ride or suggesting folks lie on an application.

I did much of my training under 141 and later instructed in that part 141 program. Maybe it's different now, or at different part 141 programs, but the way my flight school did it, you absolutely did have to retest for a failed stage check, and could not move on until it was satisfactory. Essentially the same as for a failed check ride.

Now whether prospective employers care about stage check failures, or consider them as bad as check ride failures, may vary. I failed several 141 stage checks and always put those on applications, but when Piedmont called me about a Direct Entry Captain position last year, they told me they didn't care about stage check failures, and asked me to remove them from my answer to that question on the application before the interview. Of course, that was a regional, and they were pretty desperate for captains at the time (early 2023), so I would imagine a legacy would be much more picky.

I do think the greater exposure to checking events is a major drawback of part 141 training, since every stage check is another opportunity to fail and end up with an indelible mark of Cain. Though, if prospective employers don't always care about stage check failures, perhaps it is helpful for those who get test anxiety about check rides, by getting them used to checking events with some lower-stakes checking events before they take their check ride.

Yeah, 141 has some weirdness. Is a 141 EOC a stage check or a check ride? Kidding.

Believe it or not, implying that a 141 End of Course failure doesn't count as a check ride failure, since you don't get a pink slip, is actually a selling point some part 141 schools use. It's completely false, of course; and anyone applying for a job omitting a 141 EOC failure on their answer to the "have you failed any checking events" question would be found out with a review of their logbook, since the examining instructor still fills out the logbook entry as "[...] End of Course Check Unsatisfactory".

 

[killbilly]

Yeah, 141 has some weirdness. Is a 141 EOC a stage check or a check ride? Kidding.

It sort of depends on the 141, too. If they have self-examining authority, un-satting an EOC results in more training, and eventual recommendation for issuance for the certificate from the FSDO. A very few schools can actually issue the certificate, too.

Believe it or not, implying that a 141 End of Course failure doesn't count as a check ride failure, since you don't get a pink slip, is actually a selling point some part 141 schools use. It's completely false, of course; and anyone applying for a job omitting a 141 EOC failure on their answer to the "have you failed any checking events" question would be found out with a review of their logbook, since the examining instructor still fills out the logbook entry as "[...] End of Course Check Unsatisfactory".

This depends on the place. One of the selling points there is that you're not paying a checkride fee to a DPE. In this day and age of $1000 checkrides, this matters to people.

The real question I have - and I don't know the answer - is whether or not a 141 stage check/unsat goes reportable to PRIA. I don't think it does, but I'm unsure.

Now, that being said, as previously mentioned, it's in the logbook. So there's evidence. But having done a few interviews now, while they review the logbooks, I'm not sure they're necessarily going to catch it. So then it goes to how the question is asked: both SouthernJets and Uni Ted ask the questions specifically around stage checks. And my own employer definitely digs into all of that, in great detail. Won't necessarily keep you from getting hired with skeletons in your closet, they just want to know about them in advance.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I do think the greater exposure to checking events is a major drawback of part 141 training, since every stage check is another opportunity to fail and end up with an indelible mark of Cain. Though, if prospective employers don't always care about stage check failures, perhaps it is helpful for those who get test anxiety about check rides, by getting them used to checking events with some lower-stakes checking events before they take their check ride.

It's an integrity check, if nothing else. Since the answer to the question is on a sheet of paper that, if not in front of the hiring board, is supposedly trivially accessible via The Process. Also thanks for the overview because frankly that's something I ought to understand but I grew up in the Wild Wild West of Part 61, ha!

One of the people I'm helping in said Process has a handful of old (FAA, not 141 school, and when I say old I mean early-2000s and gainfully employed with no failures since then) ride failures that do not show up on the website. He is, of course, self-disclosing all of them regardless of whether they show up because failure to do so would gravely imperil his employment.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

It's an integrity check, if nothing else. Since the answer to the question is on a sheet of paper that, if not in front of the hiring board, is supposedly trivially accessible via The Process. Also thanks for the overview because frankly that's something I ought to understand but I grew up in the Wild Wild West of Part 61, ha!

One of the people I'm helping in said Process has a handful of old (FAA, not 141 school, and when I say old I mean early-2000s and gainfully employed with no failures since then) ride failures that do not show up on the website. He is, of course, self-disclosing all of them regardless of whether they show up because failure to do so would gravely imperil his employment.

Well, integrity is a two-way street.

I’m always going to act in my best long-term interest. For me, honesty has been in my best interest. Change a few things and that may not have been the case.

I don’t think I ever would have lied about training failures but I’m pretty sure I would have lied about some of the more benign mental health or medical issues that could unfairly derail a career.