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more 2 cents change.
If the Pilot in Command designates you as Second in Command in a verbal briefing, you are now "operating under regulations that require a second in command."
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What regulation REQUIRES there to be an SIC solely when the PIC wants one?
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My FSDO buddies agree with me.
[/ QUOTE ] FSDO buddies are usually the least informed about FARs. Sad, but true. If you want interpretation that carries any weight, make some buddies in the FAA Counsel's office, since those are the guys who will be prosecuting / convicting / sentencing you if you violate something. See my quote below, a copy of a letter that addresses this issue, in part.
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My airline interview people tell me that they would rather see it as SIC than PIC. The very best solution is not logging it at all, but I know that would damage a lot of future careers!
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Since 61.55 requires logging for the purpose of meeting aeronautical experience requirements for certificates and ratings and recency of experience requirements, which come up a whole lot more frequently than an airline interview, I would suggest logging in accordance with 61.55 and making any adjustments as necessary for any airline interviews.
I think the important thing is that so long as you acknowledge that not all of your flight time necessarily meets up to airline recruiting standards, and have a method of determining which time does and which time does not match up, you'll be in good shape. It is a much better idea to conform to FAA standards and amend those as necessary.
As for there not being a restriction on logging SIC time under Part 91, I've read 61.51 over and over again, and I'm still not seeing how it can be interpreted to mean that there's no restriction.
I will stipulate that 61.51 only mentions requirements with respect to meeting aeronautical experience requirements or recent flight experience requirements, and you can therefore log anything however you want. HOWEVER...
Let's assume that you are using your 1 hour in a Cheyenne riding in the right seat, manipulating the controls to meet the aeronautical experience requirements for some rating or certificate. 61.51(f) quite plainly (which is strange for the FARs) prohibits logging ANY flight time as SIC that is not in an aircraft that is type certificated for two pilots, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. If the REGULATIONS or the TC require an SIC, then it's loggable. If neither require an SIC, then it is not loggable as SIC.
Examples of regulations which require an SIC are certain types of 135 operations, 121 operations, and then 91.531 airplanes (large airplanes and jets, with a few exceptions).
61.51(f) is not vague at all, it is very specific. As can be seen below, in the interpretation from FAA Counsel on this matter. The situation which Counsel is addressing is different, but he covers this exact aspect of logging SIC time whe not required by TC or regulation... I have made the relevant sections bold.
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QUESTION: Ref. § 61.51;
1. You ask whether the pilot can log PIC flight time during those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls and whether a pilot may be considered the SIC for the part 135 operation if he or she is paying the part 135 operator to conduct the flight.
Answered by: Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division, AGC-200, Washington, DC
Mr. Jeff Karch
P.O. Box 5791
Lynnwood, WA 98046-5791
Dear Mr. Karch:
This is in response to your letter dated August 26, 1996, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), concerning the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time. Additionally, your letter raises questions regarding the qualifications of pilots designated as second in command (SIC) by part 135 (14 CFR part 135) operators.
In your letter you present the following scenario: A pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, pays a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations.
The logging of flight time is governed by § 61.51 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR § 61.51). That section requires the logging of aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, flight review, or the recent flight experience requirements of 14 CFR Part 61. The FAA does not require the logging of other flight time, but it is encouraged.
Logging of SIC flight time is governed by § 61.51(f), which provides, in pertinent part, that a person may log SIC time only for that flight time during which that person acts as SIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the aircraft’s type certificate or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
If a pilot designated as SIC is not required by either the aircraft type certificate or the regulations under which the operation is being conducted (e.g. 14 CFR § 135.103), as is the case For the scenario above, then the pilot designated as SIC may not log flight time as SIC. Although the flight time cannot be logged as SIC time, the pilot designated as SIC may be able to log part or all of the flight time as PIC in accordance with § 61.51(e).
§ 61.51(e) provides, in pertinent part, that a private or commercial pilot may log PIC flight time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or is acting as the PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Accordingly, a pilot designated as SIC may log as PIC flight time all of the flight time during which he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that individual is rated. Although the pilot designated as SIC For the scenario you provided in your letter may be properly logging flight time pursuant to § 61.51(e), the more important issue raised in your letter concerns whether or not this individual is properly qualified to be designated as SIC and to manipulate the controls of the aircraft.
§ 135.95 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR § 135.95) provides, in pertinent part, that no certificate holder may use the services of any person as an airman unless the person performing those services holds an appropriate and current airman certificate and is qualified, under this chapter, for the operation for which the person is to be used. (Emphasis added)
§ 135.115 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR § 135.115) governs who may manipulate the controls of an aircraft being operated under part 135. This section states, in pertinent part, that no person may manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during a flight conducted under part 135 unless that person is a pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft. (Emphasis added)
As a result, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC and allow that individual to manipulate the controls of the aircraft if that pilot is “qualified” in the aircraft and “employed” by the certificate holder. In order to be “qualified” in the aircraft for the operation for which the person is to be used, a pilot designated as SIC must meet all applicable regulatory requirements including the eligibility requirements under § 135.245 (14 CFR § 135.245) and the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements under section 135.293 (14 CFR § 135.293).
§ 135.245 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve, as SIC of an aircraft unless that person holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and an instrument rating.
§ 135.293 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve as a pilot, unless that pilot has passed a written or oral test on the listed subjects in this section as well as pass a competency flight check.
Therefore, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC if that pilot is properly “qualified” in accordance with the regulations including § 135.95 and § 135.115 (he or she holds the appropriate certificate and ratings pursuant to § 135.245 and that pilot has received the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements in accordance with § 135.293).
In addition to being properly “qualified,” a pilot may only manipulate the controls of an aircraft under § 135.115 if that individual is also “employed” by the part 135 operator. A pilot is considered to be “employed” by a certificate holder under part 135 if the pilot’s services are being “used” by the certificate holder. This is the dictionary definition of the word “employed”; there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship. While there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship, there does have to be an oversight relationship of the individual by the certificate holder for that individual to be considered properly “employed” (used) by the certificate holder.
As part of this oversight relationship, the part 135 operator is required, pursuant to 14 CFR § 135.63(a)(4), to keep certain records of each pilot the certificate holder uses in flight operations (e.g. the pilot’s full name, the pilot’s certificates and ratings, the pilot’s aeronautical experience, the pilot’s duties and assignments, the date and result of each initial and recurrent competency tests and proficiency and route checks, the pilot’s flight time,…). In addition, the part 135 operator is required under 14 CFR §§ 135.251 and 135.255 to provide, directly or by contract, drug and alcohol testing for each individual it “uses” in safety-sensitive positions. Flight crewmember positions, of which pilots fall under, are considered to be safety-sensitive positions as defined under part 121, appendices I and J, (14 CFR part 121, appendices I and J), which require drug and alcohol testing.
In summary, based on your scenario, a pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, may pay a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations provided he or she is qualified, under part 135, for the operation for which the person is to be used. In addition, this pilot may manipulate the controls of the aircraft during part 135 operations provided he or she is employed by the certificate holder. This pilot may be designated as SIC even though the aircraft being flown does not require more than one pilot and the regulations under which the flight is being conducted do not require more than one pilot. Finally, this pilot may log PIC flight time for those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, but may not log any portion of the flight as SIC time.
We hope that this satisfactorily answers your questions. This opinion has been coordinated with Flight Standards.
Sincerely,
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
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So, as can be seen from the interpretation above, pure designation as a SIC by the company or PIC or whatever means diddly squat if the TC or regulations do not REQUIRE the SIC to be there.
Instead of logging ad hoc, log in accordance with 61.51 and adjust for any interviews. It makes it so much more standardized that way, and at least that way you can determine what's LEGAL and what's not.
Best solution...get a computer logbook and make some kind of a distinction between Part 1 PIC time, and Part 61 PIC time, and then filter out the portions with non-Part 1 PIC time, if your airline interviewers only want to see that kind of time in there.
Ray