Calling V1 five knots early?

PositionAndHold said:
That makes sense. As far as ours go it's the same. The 'ol Ding, Ding, Ding. We also rarely operate with an equal V1/Vr. Usually about a 5-6kts spread. Like @Derg said, it's an interesting discussion even after a bottle and a half of vino. :)
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Yes it is! I had a late sim tonight, so I finally poured my first drink.

It really is amazing how much airlines can vary. You've handed a cat and the skin has to come off. The end result is the same no matter how you get there, just some ways can be a bit more messy or take longer than others. :)
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Ha! I'm always manual thrust on approaches like that... it gets a bit gusty on that kite we call an airbus at that weight and the thrust gets behind quick!
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Yes. 318's got that "UNNNNNNNNNNGGRRRRRRRPHHHHHH" when Vmini starts jumping around and it gets a little slow. It's actually a pretty cool groan.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Yes it is! I had a late sim tonight, so I finally poured my first drink.

It really is amazing how much airlines can vary. You've handed a cat and the skin has to come off. The end result is the same no matter how you get there, just some ways can be a bit more messy or take longer than others. :)
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The whole "truism" speech is something I learned after sitting in a 330 in the middle of the ocean and, well, since I was one of the few PMDL's onboard, I was supposedly the man with all the answers to "why, why, why".

Standard rate turn at an FBO, just roll until the turn coordinator is on the line.

Standard rate turn at Riddle, Figure 15% of your TAS, roll into that number, double check with your turn coordinator for accuracy.

Standard rate turn in the airline business? I don't know man, just turn it, but not more than 25 degrees, who really cares. Follow your flight director, what kind of leg distances do they want? What was the EFC again? What do you want to call "bingo"?

Fly the aircraft to please whoever judges the standard. Have a long and happy career and it is what it is.
 
PositionAndHold said:
That makes sense. As far as ours go it's the same. The 'ol Ding, Ding, Ding. We also rarely operate with an equal V1/Vr. Usually about a 5-6kts spread. Like @Derg said, it's an interesting discussion even after a bottle and a half of vino. :)
Click to expand...

We used to talk about situations back in the day with wet runway and good headwind; very low V1 and good spread between that and Vr. Couple a maybe 15 knot groundspeed slower than indicated, and we'd mull over committing to takeoff at what would've been a very low overall abort speed, and having to still spend good time accelerating single-engine to our take-off speed in the accelerate-go distance, which would sometimes be longer than available runway (known as Cat. III, where critical field length exceeds runway length). Interesting discussions.

We'd still compute refusal speed even in some single-engine planes on shorter runways, just to know the max speed we could get to, abort, and still keep it from going off the end of the runway.

Here's an older interesting article about the re-calculating of T-38 TOLD numbers after some performance mods were installed on the birds in the mid-2000s. The last tests from 1966 test data was no longer valid.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDispl.../edwards-talons-test-one-engine-takeoffs.aspx
 
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PeanuckleCRJ said:
It really is amazing how much airlines can vary. You've handed a cat and the skin has to come off. The end result is the same no matter how you get there, just some ways can be a bit more messy or take longer than others. :)
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My point I was trying to make on the whole technique vs procedure debate. What's a procedure at one place, is merely a technique at another. And if safe and efficient, neither is wrong or invalid.
 
Derg said:
Speaking of speeds, we had a 120kt Vapp into DTW a few days ago. It was like I was approaching a helipad in the wind. I damned near went back for a pre-arrival pee.
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How do you think I felt going from F-117 approach speeds (approach Category E) @ 180 depending, to 200 circling; to going to the Airbus AS350 AStar? :)
 
MikeD said:
My point I was trying to make on the whole technique vs procedure debate. What's a procedure at one place, is merely a technique at another. And if safe and efficient, neither is wrong or invalid.
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I absolutely agree on the technique/procedure debate.

However, I'll throw it out there that universally calling V1 5 knots prior to the actual speed is not near optimum (and at times invalid) due to how dynamic that regime is.
 
MikeD said:
We used to talk about situations back in the day with wet runway and good headwind; very low V1 and good spread between that and Vr. Couple a maybe 15 knot groundspeed slower than indicated, and we'd mull over committing to takeoff at what would've been a very low overall abort speed, and having to still spend good time accelerating single-engine to our take-off speed in the accelerate-go distance, which would sometimes be longer than available runway (known as Cat. III, where critical field length exceeds runway length). Interesting discussions.

Here's an older interesting article about the re-calculating of T-38 TOLD numbers after some performance mods were installed on the birds in the mid-2000s. The last tests from 1966 test data was no longer valid.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDispl.../edwards-talons-test-one-engine-takeoffs.aspx
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I scanned the article. It would be interesting to see the difference between an AF jet and a part 25 certified jet. After all Martin-Baker can make up for a little lack of performance in certification. :)
 
PositionAndHold said:
I'm the one drinkin a nice Malbec. At least you've got beer. Although, any thing pumpkin/pumpkin spice comes with a set of uggs and yoga pants. :)
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Oh god. I'm no fashionista, but that's very 2012 "Arizona Soccer Mom" out on date night with ex-high school star athlete with two years at the junior college who double-shifts at the Target distribution center!
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I absolutely agree on the technique/procedure debate.

However, I'll throw it out there that universally calling V1 5 knots prior to the actual speed is not near optimum (and at times invalid) due to how dynamic that regime is.
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It does seem like "almost preggers" in reference to calling V1 "early"

Either you are or you are not, what is it? :)
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I absolutely agree on the technique/procedure debate.

However, I'll throw it out there that universally calling V1 5 knots prior to the actual speed is not near optimum (and at times invalid) due to how dynamic that regime is.
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And that's the part of the debate I was trying to explain to Seggy, but my explanation may not have been clear in text.

And I'm with you on that particular. While I don't think the -5 is necessarily unsafe, if I had to choose one over the other personally, I'd keep V1 as V1, as that's what it's known to me as. But that's just me, and not as Doug says, a universal truism.
 
PositionAndHold said:
I scanned the article. It would be interesting to see the difference between an AF jet and a part 25 certified jet. After all Martin-Baker can make up for a little lack of performance in certification. :)
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Or the 15,000' pavement, with the 24,000' overrun?
 
Derg said:
It does seem like "almost preggers" in reference to calling V1 "early"

Either you are or you are not, what is it? :)
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I get what you guys are saying. The guy I fly with and me are both captains. We switch every other day and have flown the last 1,500 hours with each other. So when we call V1 early, were really making the decision for the other guy that we're going flying. We trust each other and have been through the last five recurrents together without the red screen of death. It gets to the point where we can guess what the other is going to do. We joke it's like having a work husband. So, after thinking about it, I'm probably not the best perspective when it comes to this. I get how it doesn't translate to the 121 world. I'm sure if we switched experiences for a day we'd get it.
 
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