C207 crash Juneau

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What does that matter? It does not matter where you fly, you should not fly your aircraft into the ground or water. If someone's life is not at risk on the ground like in the case of a SAR mission, why do it? Flying crappy planes in crappy weather for crappy pay just is not worth it, especially just because that is how we do it and what is expected of us.

Right now, the field is calling VFR. 6sm and 1200' ceilings, and a 737 just went missed.

I've flown a 15 minute flight to one of our destinations on a beautiful day, spent ten minutes turning around on the ground, launched to go back and found a wall of crap at Couverden, between me and home. Turned around to go back to the place I just left, and barely, barely got back in.

This is an airport that's 37nm away from my point of departure. Fifteen minutes of flying time.

That's why it matters.

-Fox
 
What does that matter? It does not matter where you fly, you should not fly your aircraft into the ground or water. If someone's life is not at risk on the ground like in the case of a SAR mission, why do it? Flying crappy planes in crappy weather for crappy pay just is not worth it, especially just because that is how we do it and what is expected of us.
I'm curious as well, and I've seen it where I work to some extent even. Even where I work, not one single PIC would be reprimanded for saying no. So long as their immediate supervisor isn't spineless. There will ALWAYS be resistance from ops and especially the customer. That's not for the PIC to deal with and frankly, they're paid to make that call and should be backed up by their immediate supervisor if the pilot is competent and their supervisor isn't a spineless piece of amphibian poo.
 
Right now, the field is calling VFR. 6sm and 1200' ceilings, and a 737 just went missed.

I've flown a 15 minute flight to one of our destinations on a beautiful day, spent ten minutes turning around on the ground, launched to go back and found a wall of crap at Couverden, between me and home. Turned around to go back to the place I just left, and barely, barely got back in.

This is an airport that's 37nm away from my point of departure. Fifteen minutes of flying time.

That's why it matters.

-Fox

I would carry enough gas to give myself an out in that situation. If IMC is not an option due to ice or aircraft performance, I am going to think again about launching into such volatile weather. Delivering people or supplies to some village is not worth dying for.
 
Right now, the field is calling VFR. 6sm and 1200' ceilings, and a 737 just went missed.

I've flown a 15 minute flight to one of our destinations on a beautiful day, spent ten minutes turning around on the ground, launched to go back and found a wall of crap at Couverden, between me and home. Turned around to go back to the place I just left, and barely, barely got back in.

This is an airport that's 37nm away from my point of departure. Fifteen minutes of flying time.

That's why it matters.

-Fox
Fox is right on the money. Many folks don't understand how rapidly Wx changes in AK. They don't realize that a pilot can have good VFR at the departure and destination airports (which may be only 50 miles apart), but that the Wx can be hard IFR in between. Or the Wx can go IFR as quickly as he describes. Folks who haven't flown in AK should withhold judgment.
 
Right now, the field is calling VFR. 6sm and 1200' ceilings, and a 737 just went missed.

I've flown a 15 minute flight to one of our destinations on a beautiful day, spent ten minutes turning around on the ground, launched to go back and found a wall of crap at Couverden, between me and home. Turned around to go back to the place I just left, and barely, barely got back in.

This is an airport that's 37nm away from my point of departure. Fifteen minutes of flying time.

That's why it matters.

-Fox
I'd go IFR only and only if I could get back into the departure airport or one close by that I already planned for. Safe>Legal>Efficient. In that order ONLY. Nothing of what you just gave me is safe. Legal, but not safe. Not anywhere with anything taller than a 300 foot cell tower at least
 
Fox is right on the money. Many folks don't understand how rapidly Wx changes in AK. They don't realize that a pilot can have good VFR at the departure and destination airports (which may be only 50 miles apart), but that the Wx can be hard IFR in between. Or the Wx can go IFR as quickly as he describes. Folks who haven't flown in AK should withhold judgment.
Right, because AK is the only place in the entire world with unpredictable weather...
 
I'm going to drive to a restaurant, have a burger, eat my fries, close my eyes, take a few deep breaths and then—and only then—consider responding to this thread again.
Step away from the thread for a while. Go relax! Go for a drive and enjoy yourself and the awesome car.
 
I'm going to drive to a restaurant, have a burger, eat my fries, close my eyes, take a few deep breaths and then—and only then—consider responding to this thread again.
You do that, but you can't ignore 3 key problems with AK. The feds don't give you an option to be more safe, the companies and their AWFUL POIs push the shadiness, and the PICs don't stand up to the company. I'm not at all saying that's what happened here with this accident. That's for the final report to say.

No freaking way I would do a flight from Grand Forks, ND to Hillsboro, ND in those conditions you stated though... That's on a published airway and in contact with ATC, both by radar and radio the entire time. Again, Safe>Legal>Efficient
 
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I certainly don't mean to offend but if you decide to aviate and hit a granite cloud in Los Angeles it has the exact same effect as it would in Alaska.

Very true, but the factors leading to you deciding to depart or not are very different in LA. Ultimately, the deck is stacked against you from the beginning because these flights (which are by and large done in .3 increments when you're flying to Hoonah) go through areas of limited weather availability that change rapidly. The forecasting is poor and the winds are strong. Literally every single bay and valley has it's own little micro-climate and basically operates independently of the rest of the area, and what's true in one little region is not true in another area 5 miles away. There simply isn't adequate information available to make good judgments 100% of the time and VFR flying is by it's very nature a subjective art - not a objective one.

Unless you've done it quite a bit, how can you tell when you're in 1SM at 500' in a 207 or 3/4SM? Even if you're experienced it's tough - and having done this sort of thing for several thousand hours, I'll tell you the truth, when I'm down low, close to terrain, I'm only looking outside to make sure I'm going to be able to maintain VFR. The outside is like another instrument that I keep in my scan that low when the weather is crappy. My scan at 500' AGL is much more focused inside than it is outside, because honestly, 1SM and clear of clouds in Class G is freaking instrument flying. If you're trying to do pilotage in that weather with modern airplanes and technology, you're doing it wrong. If you're on a pre-defined route at a pre-defined altitude and you wait for the weather to come to you, the flight is much more objective. That's why instrument flying is so much safer - because honestly, all of the decisions under 135 are by and large made for you. The airport is either above minimums or below minimums. You get to minimums and you either see all the 91.175 stuff or you go missed. You look at the forecast and you either have the weather to depart, or you don't - and even if you do have the weather, if it's even remotely questionable, you have an alternate. IFR flying is substantially less challenging than VFR flying when operating in marginal weather.

People will say the same thing about VFR cloud clearance requirements, but the God's honest truth is that most pilots don't know what the hell "bad VFR weather" looks like. Most pilots I've known in the lower 48 have never flown VFR in 1SM of visibility. So when you take 500hr guys and gals and toss them into natures weather playground you're asking for trouble. At 500hrs, a lot of these people are just looking to build flight time and move on to the next thing. They don't want to ding their record, so they're at least going to try to play by the rules as best they can. They also don't want to lose their job for not flying (which is a real thing), so they get out there and at least try to git-r-dun. This means that they either neglect their flight instruments and the associated skills or try to operate by pilotage a little more than they should when the conditions are less than ideal. They should turn around well before they end up in inadvertent IMC, but most people haven't really had the experience of flying VFR in extremely marginal conditions before they get to Alaska so they don't really know any better and all of the sudden - wham - they're flying IMC at 500' and they have to shoot from the hip and extricate themselves from the situation without getting killed. For many, inadvertent IMC in a small airplane somewhere in Alaska is the first real instrument flying they've ever done in their career, and if they've been neglecting their instrument skills because they've been flying floats or are simply inexperienced (as appears to be the case on this second tragedy at Point Howard) they're woefully unprepared to "do the right thing" when they need to.

You can look at the cameras to fly up the Canal, have a good idea what the weather is at every step of the way before you depart, and have to turn around because it's entirely different than when you left 20 minutes ago. If any of you folks have shot a contact approach, flying to Hoonah or Gustavus is a lot like flying a contact approach for 20 to 30 minutes in highly mountainous terrain. It's not clear all of the time - even for experienced guys - what the best course of action is, and sometimes, you're left with only bad options.

Finally, it's worth noting the type of people drawn to this kind of flying. Nearly everyone who comes to Alaska to fly is an adventurer in some way shape or form. The guys who aren't looking for the challenge and the emotions associated with doing hard work in inclement conditions stay away from this type of work. Those guys CFI until they can apply for a better job flying better equipment in safer conditions. As such, this type of flying inherently attracts the people who are less risk averse than the general population of pilots out there. Most of the people who don't fall in love with the state leave after a season, but some stay, and over time they learn to mitigate the risks so they can operate safely. Ultimately though, we should acknowledge that Alaska attracts a certain breed of aviator to fly little airplanes - and those guys and gals are probably inherently more susceptible to risks early in their careers that are not prevalent elsewhere in the country. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - the transportation infrastructure of the state relies upon it - still, we need to acknowledge the human factors associated with these sorts of accidents as well.
 
You know, I'd swear there was a reg somewhere saying the PIC was the final authority to a flight.

But I guess it's easier to just wing it into absurd weather while 'VFR' then blame the Feds every time someone kills themselves in an airplane up there.
If you saw how the operations work you wouldn't be saying that. The pilots are doing with the companies are asking and what the feds are requiring. Every time this happens in SE, the feds are saying, we don't care enough to spend a week setting up IFR structure in SE.

That said, I won't do it. Under no circumstances will I operate a flight for hire under VFR, even in Nebrahoma with clear skies and 100sm vis.
 
Very true, but the factors leading to you deciding to depart or not are very different in LA. Ultimately, the deck is stacked against you from the beginning because these flights (which are by and large done in .3 increments when you're flying to Hoonah) go through areas of limited weather availability that change rapidly. The forecasting is poor and the winds are strong. Literally every single bay and valley has it's own little micro-climate and basically operates independently of the rest of the area, and what's true in one little region is not true in another area 5 miles away. There simply isn't adequate information available to make good judgments 100% of the time and VFR flying is by it's very nature a subjective art - not a objective one.

Unless you've done it quite a bit, how can you tell when you're in 1SM at 500' in a 207 or 3/4SM? Even if you're experienced it's tough - and having done this sort of thing for several thousand hours, I'll tell you the truth, when I'm down low, close to terrain, I'm only looking outside to make sure I'm going to be able to maintain VFR. The outside is like another instrument that I keep in my scan that low when the weather is crappy. My scan at 500' AGL is much more focused inside than it is outside, because honestly, 1SM and clear of clouds in Class G is freaking instrument flying. If you're trying to do pilotage in that weather with modern airplanes and technology, you're doing it wrong. If you're on a pre-defined route at a pre-defined altitude and you wait for the weather to come to you, the flight is much more objective. That's why instrument flying is so much safer - because honestly, all of the decisions under 135 are by and large made for you. The airport is either above minimums or below minimums. You get to minimums and you either see all the 91.175 stuff or you go missed. You look at the forecast and you either have the weather to depart, or you don't - and even if you do have the weather, if it's even remotely questionable, you have an alternate. IFR flying is substantially less challenging than VFR flying when operating in marginal weather.

People will say the same thing about VFR cloud clearance requirements, but the God's honest truth is that most pilots don't know what the hell "bad VFR weather" looks like. Most pilots I've known in the lower 48 have never flown VFR in 1SM of visibility. So when you take 500hr guys and gals and toss them into natures weather playground you're asking for trouble. At 500hrs, a lot of these people are just looking to build flight time and move on to the next thing. They don't want to ding their record, so they're at least going to try to play by the rules as best they can. They also don't want to lose their job for not flying (which is a real thing), so they get out there and at least try to git-r-dun. This means that they either neglect their flight instruments and the associated skills or try to operate by pilotage a little more than they should when the conditions are less than ideal. They should turn around well before they end up in inadvertent IMC, but most people haven't really had the experience of flying VFR in extremely marginal conditions before they get to Alaska so they don't really know any better and all of the sudden - wham - they're flying IMC at 500' and they have to shoot from the hip and extricate themselves from the situation without getting killed. For many, inadvertent IMC in a small airplane somewhere in Alaska is the first real instrument flying they've ever done in their career, and if they've been neglecting their instrument skills because they've been flying floats or are simply inexperienced (as appears to be the case on this second tragedy at Point Howard) they're woefully unprepared to "do the right thing" when they need to.

You can look at the cameras to fly up the Canal, have a good idea what the weather is at every step of the way before you depart, and have to turn around because it's entirely different than when you left 20 minutes ago. If any of you folks have shot a contact approach, flying to Hoonah or Gustavus is a lot like flying a contact approach for 20 to 30 minutes in highly mountainous terrain. It's not clear all of the time - even for experienced guys - what the best course of action is, and sometimes, you're left with only bad options.

Finally, it's worth noting the type of people drawn to this kind of flying. Nearly everyone who comes to Alaska to fly is an adventurer in some way shape or form. The guys who aren't looking for the challenge and the emotions associated with doing hard work in inclement conditions stay away from this type of work. Those guys CFI until they can apply for a better job flying better equipment in safer conditions. As such, this type of flying inherently attracts the people who are less risk averse than the general population of pilots out there. Most of the people who don't fall in love with the state leave after a season, but some stay, and over time they learn to mitigate the risks so they can operate safely. Ultimately though, we should acknowledge that Alaska attracts a certain breed of aviator to fly little airplanes - and those guys and gals are probably inherently more susceptible to risks early in their careers that are not prevalent elsewhere in the country. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - the transportation infrastructure of the state relies upon it - still, we need to acknowledge the human factors associated with these sorts of accidents as well.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. If it's "VFR" in most places, it probably isn't going to change all day and will probably get better, probably is the key word, and I bet that only applies to a place like Phoenix during the 1 in 2000 days it might have crappy weather. For what it's worth, if what I say matters at all in this thread, I've NEVER thought the minimum LEGAL requirement was safe, EVER. Why it's accepted to continue to fly up there(sorry, but AK isn't the worst weather in the world, not even close) VFR is beyond me. I'm going to push all of your buttons but it seems to me that most of the operators are using legal>efficient>safe as the philosophy behind their operating practices and the feds aren't intervening or helping anyone.
 
If you saw how the operations work you wouldn't be saying that. The pilots are doing with the companies are asking and what the feds are requiring. Every time this happens in SE, the feds are saying, we don't care enough to spend a week setting up IFR structure in SE.

That said, I won't do it. Under no circumstances will I operate a flight for hire under VFR, even in Nebrahoma with clear skies and 100sm vis.
You're right! Nebrahoma is also unpredictable!
 
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. If it's "VFR" in most places, it probably isn't going to change all day and will probably get better, probably is the key word, and I bet that only applies to a place like Phoenix during the 1 in 2000 days it might have crappy weather. For what it's worth, if what I say matters at all in this thread, I've NEVER thought the minimum LEGAL requirement was safe, EVER. Why it's accepted to continue to fly up there(sorry, but AK isn't the worst weather in the world, not even close) VFR is beyond me. I'm going to push all of your buttons but it seems to me that most of the operators are using legal>efficient>safe as the philosophy behind their operating practices and the feds aren't intervening or helping anyone.

You can believe what you want, that's fine. And it doesn't bother me, I don't even live up north anymore (for now anyway, it always seems to call me back home). Still, I don't think you are qualified to comment on this sort of thing. As for for:

sorry, but AK isn't the worst weather in the world, not even close

I assume you're just trying to push my buttons, but I would agree, it's not the worst in the world - that doesn't make flying VFR in challenging conditions any easier. It's also worth noting that in SE Alaska particular, it is consistently bad weather for much of the year. I also suspect that a little of the AmFlight machismo is coming out of this post about how "I would do it different if it were me." I've seen lots of guys come up there with that attitude, then they end up doing the same thing everyone else is doing, or get frustrated and go back to "America" after a year or so. Believe what you want - you're going to anyway, I just think you don't really know what you're talking about in regards to this. That's not a dig against you - I've never flown in the Caribbean, I'm sure there are lots of things about operating down there that I know nothing about, and if I were speaking as though I were an authority on some topic down there and I were off base, I'd fully expect you to correct me.

As for why VFR is the modus operandi - you cannot operate a 207 IFR up there for most of the year because the MEAs are too high and there is ice, and many of the legs are too short for operators to justify putting the equipment in because you'll cycle out fast, etc. Telling operators to "go buy caravans" isn't really going to happen because they're expensive to purchase and operators are price sensitive. It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and say, "no way this should have happened, pilot error as usual" but that doesn't solve the problem. I have worked in the industry up north to try to make things safer, I've been a part of implementing systems and methods to reduce risk, I was part of starting our ASAP program at my old job, and I'll tell you this - while the final link in the chain is the PIC's decision to continue, it's a cop-out to lay the blame solely at the feet of the pilot (which has been how the FAA and NTSB has been handling these sorts of things for decades). There are a lot of links in the chain that finally result in an accident: it's the culture of the pilots, the weather, the equipment, the temperatures, the company's attitude towards safety, the limited infrastructure in terms of runways, navaids, and IFPs, the pressure that the passengers put on you, the experience level of the pilots brought in to do this work, and much much more.

One of the biggest things effecting safety right now is the pilot shortage up north. It's not easy to find guys to fly your airplanes when you're paying the same thing you were 10 years ago and staffing so minimally that guys are working 60hr work weeks. That's a huge part of the problem.
 
Very GOP, honestly.

It's downright tragic. Safety costs money. Someone has to pay for it.
Eh. There's no money other than government money to be had in a lot of the villages. It's to the point where with oil at $55 a barrel the state is trying to figure out how to keep runways cleared and paved (where applicable) much less improve infrastructure. You're sure as hell not going to get the cash from the residents in many of the places where the two biggest industries are subsistence hunting/gathering and government money.
 
Eh. There's no money other than government money to be had in a lot of the villages. It's to the point where with oil at $55 a barrel the state is trying to figure out how to keep runways cleared and paved (where applicable) much less improve infrastructure. You're sure as hell not going to get the cash from the residents in many of the places where the two biggest industries are subsistence hunting/gathering and government money.
Not to mention the work ethic in some of the villages. There are places we go where people dont want to wake up early to plow.
 
You can believe what you want, that's fine. And it doesn't bother me, I don't even live up north anymore (for now anyway, it always seems to call me back home). Still, I don't think you are qualified to comment on this sort of thing. As for for:



I assume you're just trying to push my buttons, but I would agree, it's not the worst in the world - that doesn't make flying VFR in challenging conditions any easier. It's also worth noting that in SE Alaska particular, it is consistently bad weather for much of the year. I also suspect that a little of the AmFlight machismo is coming out of this post about how "I would do it different if it were me." I've seen lots of guys come up there with that attitude, then they end up doing the same thing everyone else is doing, or get frustrated and go back to "America" after a year or so. Believe what you want - you're going to anyway, I just think you don't really know what you're talking about in regards to this. That's not a dig against you - I've never flown in the Caribbean, I'm sure there are lots of things about operating down there that I know nothing about, and if I were speaking as though I were an authority on some topic down there and I were off base, I'd fully expect you to correct me.

As for why VFR is the modus operandi - you cannot operate a 207 IFR up there for most of the year because the MEAs are too high and there is ice, and many of the legs are too short for operators to justify putting the equipment in because you'll cycle out fast, etc. Telling operators to "go buy caravans" isn't really going to happen because they're expensive to purchase and operators are price sensitive. It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and say, "no way this should have happened, pilot error as usual" but that doesn't solve the problem. I have worked in the industry up north to try to make things safer, I've been a part of implementing systems and methods to reduce risk, I was part of starting our ASAP program at my old job, and I'll tell you this - while the final link in the chain is the PIC's decision to continue, it's a cop-out to lay the blame solely at the feet of the pilot (which has been how the FAA and NTSB has been handling these sorts of things for decades). There are a lot of links in the chain that finally result in an accident: it's the culture of the pilots, the weather, the equipment, the temperatures, the company's attitude towards safety, the limited infrastructure in terms of runways, navaids, and IFPs, the pressure that the passengers put on you, the experience level of the pilots brought in to do this work, and much much more.

One of the biggest things effecting safety right now is the pilot shortage up north. It's not easy to find guys to fly your airplanes when you're paying the same thing you were 10 years ago and staffing so minimally that guys are working 60hr work weeks. That's a huge part of the problem.
Don't take off when the weather is bad, but if you do, turn around before it gets really bad, but if you don't, keep the airplane over the blue, get some altitude underneath you, and turn for home. It's really not that hard but the habit pattern has to be beaten into you that the airplane flies the same inside a cloud, it doesn't fly the same after it's been driven into the trees because you tried too long to be a good boy and stay visual.
 
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