Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings

[DPApilot]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

F/A check-rides & ground-school is a joke compared to the pilot side of things. It in no way compares to flying an airplane day in and day out. F/A's service drinks 99% of the time while all their training is handling abnormal and emergency situations. 8 months after my initial training do I remember the exact commands and isle block techniques. Nah not really but I am sure I probably could safely get everyone out. Very rarely do we have a Chief FA ride a long with us and it actually never happened to me while I was there.

And then theirs F/A's who end up with a poo storm hell of a flight.
My mom was working a MDW-DEN flight when her Capt had a stroke and subsequent seizures. The FO was left to fly the 73 and divert to LNK. the flight attendents ended up getting him out of the cockpit after another series of seizures and a descent to below 10K, but his legs had been jammed in the rudders so not good. Luckly no one (but my mom) got hurt. She ended up getting him on the AED and he survived.
Since then her back has been FUBAR but what did ATA want to know? So, can you work the next leg?


so, FA's do have a great responsibility, they may serve drinks most of the time, but when the poo hits the fan in the cabin, theyre there to deal with it.

 

[WacoFan]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I used simple logic with my user-fee argument to Velo - your industry wouldn't exist without the ATC system while GA would. Therefore, 121 should bare the cost of the system.

I use a similar logic here - your ability to make a living (as a 121 pax pilot) wouldn't exist without F/A's - so it would seem that a greater level of respect toward F/A's would be in order - particularly when they are pro-pilot and trying to make a point you agree with. I would agree that with the attitudes that some here show, the LAST thing that their flying career and mortgage need is full reviews of CVR's.

Now - one to the relevant question -

Would paranoia about not misspeaking on a CVR (if they can pull them and listen anytime they want) actually be a negative safety feature? My opinion would be "yes". Just as the use of CVR's appears to be "creeping" toward full time babysitting, eventually it would go beyond immediate safety of flight issues and into personel issues in general (CA said this on a flight and it hurt my feelings type stuff) and it would eventually end up in HR uses. A sterile cockpit is good at times...but a completely sterile environment would probably lead to people in both seats biting their tongues when they should probably be speaking up.

What I would be in favor of is up or out policies, and a return to the days when a busted checkride or comp check (at the 121 level) was delivered along with your pink-slip. My Grandpa never had a comp check or upgrade that he could have had remedial training on - fail and you were gone. I am not sure when they went to fail/retrain/test again. I say, increase demands on the training events and results and then you perhaps don't have to babysit via CVR. This will actually lead to Velo's wet dream - fewer 121 pilots and thereby a greater demand than supple and higher wages! Of course, it isn't as fun for him as complaining about FLAPS, but he would eventually get his raise. If more and more people were failig training events (and thereby getting dismissed) it would also have the effect of airlines being more selective in the hiring process (to avoid the expense of hiring someone that they thought would bust a ride someday).

BTW - why did the airlines stop the practice of firing after a busted checkride or upgrade?

 

[MQAAord]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

And then theirs F/A's who end up with a poo storm hell of a flight.
My mom was working a MDW-DEN flight when her Capt had a stroke and subsequent seizures. The FO was left to fly the 73 and divert to LNK. the flight attendents ended up getting him out of the cockpit after another series of seizures and a descent to below 10K, but his legs had been jammed in the rudders so not good. Luckly no one (but my mom) got hurt. She ended up getting him on the AED and he survived.
Since then her back has been FUBAR but what did ATA want to know? So, can you work the next leg?


so, FA's do have a great responsibility, they may serve drinks most of the time, but when the poo hits the fan in the cabin, theyre there to deal with it.

That really sucks about your mom's back. Typical of what an airline would ask though, "What, you got hurt? You sure you can't do the next leg? But we need the plane back at the hub!"

jhugz has done some time as a F/A.

I would really like to keep this thread on the CVR track, but I appreciate the back up

 

[Orange Anchor]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Would paranoia about not misspeaking on a CVR (if they can pull them and listen anytime they want) actually be a negative safety feature? My opinion would be "yes". Just as the use of CVR's appears to be "creeping" toward full time babysitting, eventually it would go beyond immediate safety of flight issues and into personel issues in general (CA said this on a flight and it hurt my feelings type stuff) and it would eventually end up in HR uses. A sterile cockpit is good at times...but a completely sterile environment would probably lead to people in both seats biting their tongues when they should probably be speaking up.

Having flown for a long time, like everyone else I have flown with the guys who thought every flight was a moon shot and the other guys who wouldn't shut up. Both were distractions and both created communication problems.

The CVR is there for accident investigation. It is not the sterile-cockpit nanny (SCN). But obviously some think it a great idea.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

And then theirs F/A's who end up with a poo storm hell of a flight.
My mom was working a MDW-DEN flight when her Capt had a stroke and subsequent seizures. The FO was left to fly the 73 and divert to LNK. the flight attendents ended up getting him out of the cockpit after another series of seizures and a descent to below 10K, but his legs had been jammed in the rudders so not good. Luckly no one (but my mom) got hurt. She ended up getting him on the AED and he survived.
Since then her back has been FUBAR but what did ATA want to know? So, can you work the next leg?


so, FA's do have a great responsibility, they may serve drinks most of the time, but when the poo hits the fan in the cabin, theyre there to deal with it.

I really don't need a lecture from someone who was not been a F/A when I WAS one.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

haha

Nice try to talk down on me...haha

I'm not discrediting your experience as a FA, but comparing FAs to Pilots is like comparing apples to oranges.

But if I did my job with the same quality as some of our FAs do, everyone on the plane would be dead.

Bottom line: Pilots have much more invested in our career than a FA does.

Just can't get along with too many people these days can you?

anic:

 

[darrenf]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I really don't need a lecture from someone who was not been a F/A when I WAS one.

You need to ease up on the coffee.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Even though I dislike Kurec they just counted off that the CA had failed 5 checkrides - some of them while working for Colgan. The FO was mentioned as a 24 year old girl with a smiley face for a picture, probably taken when she graduated HS?

Assuming these where 121 line checks?

How in the world do you keep flying after 5 failed checkrides?
Fail one in 5 years or so (10 line checks?) but what the heck?

The FA argument is exhaustingly stupid and retarded. How the screw did FA's become part of this discussion?

I really don't need a lecture from someone who was not been a F/A when I WAS one.

Bit tense, huh? Have a beer or nine - but relax there, Boss!

 

[dcramer16]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I'll be in the hills with an AK and a bunker full of canned goods. Wooooolllvveeerrrrinesss!

Don't go to the hills, I've got a bunker built here in the mountains in Montana, bring your AK and canned goods over here!:nana2:

 

[seagull]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

The paranoia wrt recordings is really incredible. If it is done right, it would be a non-issue, and WOULD improve safety.

I would venture that those that do not think that this would aid accident investigation and also reduce future accidents do not have any actual accident investigation experience or experience working in this area of safety investigation and prevention.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I would venture that those that do not think that this would aid accident investigation and also reduce future accidents do not have any actual accident investigation experience or experience working in this area of safety investigation and prevention.

I don't think it would aid safety, but not because of the technology itself, but moreso the reception to/with it from crews being taped. Unfortunate, but true.

 

[seagull]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I don't think it would aid safety, but not because of the technology itself, but moreso the reception to/with it from crews being taped. Unfortunate, but true.

That's what they said about CVR's in the first place. Turned out to be wrong. That's also what they said about FOQA. Turned out to be wrong.

It should NOT be used for disciplinary purposes, but as an aid to finding trends and identifying problems that can be addressed by changing training, emphasis on line checks, etc. I strongly believe there would be a real value to this, if done right.

As far as people pulling breakers, besides being obvious via various means (and THAT would be a subject of discipline), it is easy to fix via putting the breakers in the e and e and a 25 hr tape.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

That's what they said about CVR's in the first place. Turned out to be wrong. That's also what they said about FOQA. Turned out to be wrong..

actually, that is not correct. FOQA is under assault from the legal beagles and also we have seen encroachments at various carriers. These actions have precipitated pilot groups pulling out for a period of time.

History may not be the best measurement in the current environment. It does seem there is considerable more acrimony between labor and management than in the past couple of decades.

 

[seagull]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

actually, that is not correct. FOQA is under assault from the legal beagles and also we have seen encroachments at various carriers. These actions have precipitated pilot groups pulling out for a period of time.

History may not be the best measurement in the current environment. It does seem there is considerable more acrimony between labor and management than in the past couple of decades.

Under assault by WHOSE "legal beagles"? Regardless, that does not change the bottom line that it HAS improved safety by every measure, paranoia of certain elements within some pilot groups not withstanding.

 

[Cptnchia]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Hey, here's a novel idea. How about those people who actually have a dog in this fight, those who actually work for a part 121 carrier, get to decide if it's a good idea or not. Those who don't actually work for a 121 carrier quit telling us what would be good for our jobs. Or can we come to your place of work and tell you what we think would be good for you.





Now THIS post should really put the 'ole stick in the hornet's nest!anic:

 

[seagull]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Hey, here's a novel idea. How about those people who actually have a dog in this fight, those who actually work for a part 121 carrier, get to decide if it's a good idea or not. Those who don't actually work for a 121 carrier quit telling us what would be good for our jobs. Or can we come to your place of work and tell you what we think would be good for you.

Now THIS post should really put the 'ole stick in the hornet's nest!anic:

How about limiting it to those of us who not only work and fly for a major part 121 carrier, but also have years of experience in safety work and major accident investigations?

 

[Cptnchia]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

How about limiting it to those of us who not only work and fly for a major part 121 carrier, but also have years of experience in safety work and major accident investigations?

So what do you and I have to say to each other? Cause there are a lot of us who match this description around.

 

[seagull]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

So what do you and I have to say to each other? Cause there are a lot of us who match this description around.

Not really. There are a lot who are a name on a "go team" who've been through the accident investigation school, but have never actually walked through large pieces of twisted metal after one of their own company's aircraft crashed. Who have never worked in D.C. on ARACs, spent time at NTSB working with the various groups, etc. Oh, they are listed on the "safety team", but that's the limit of it. They've never done more than that.

The group is small. You going to ISASI this September?

 

[MikeD]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Hey, here's a novel idea. How about those people who actually have a dog in this fight, those who actually work for a part 121 carrier, get to decide if it's a good idea or not. Those who don't actually work for a 121 carrier quit telling us what would be good for our jobs. Or can we come to your place of work and tell you what we think would be good for you.

Discussion over the concepts of safety isn't a bad thing, and no one's ordering anyone to do anything; just discussing pros and cons, of which there are many with this matter. Safety is safety, there are good, effective ways to go about it; as well as bad, ineffective ways....and everything in-between. Who knows, some good ideas may emerge from persons unexpected, on either side of the debate.

 

[Cptnchia]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

The group is small. You going to ISASI this September?

Don't know what I'm doing next month let alone in Sept. But if I do, I'll let you know. Maybe even do the golf thing together if you don't mind playing with a duffer.