Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings

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Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

surreal1221 said:
It appears so. Quite amazing.



Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it. I hold Amber's opinion about training standards in the aviation industry just a little higher than yours. The way your first couple posts came across it was as if her opinion didn't matter - not as you say now - that her experience has zero relevance when compared to pilots. That in and of itself is highly debatable. A crew environment is a crew environment no matter how you slice it. I know many pilots who like to consider the FA(s) as "other," but in reality they are just as qualified and should hold the same amount of respect as another pilot when it comes to operational decision making. We only deal with so much, while they deal with the whole back of the ship.

As far as the furlough, what furlough? I'm happily employed in another industry. I'm actually quite happy I was furloughed, as much as I miss flying, I'm glad the decision was finally made so I didn't have to keep dealing with the associated stress of knowing when I could start at a new position. You know how that feels - right? No?

How's your job? Anything else you'd like to rub in my face - perhaps something else you have no frame of reference on?
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First I'll say, I don't wish ill upon anyone.

Second, how do you know when I said "how's the furlough" that I meant it in a bad way? You could infer from my posts that I was trying to be mean, but it was not. Just a snide remark that's all, take it as you will. I'm not going to compare experiences to you, wouldn't be relevant even though I've been flying maybe a few years more than you (just hit 10 years).

I'm actually glad you have found another job. I know plenty of mainline furloughees (sp?) that have found peace in different industries. Almost like losing their job was a blessing in disguise. I do hope that is the case for anyone who has lost their job and can stomach not flying for living for the rest of their career.

Having said that, I could have worded differently talking with the MQ differently and more eloquently. You can talk crew all you want, and I believe a strong crew with great communication (including the FA) can get through situations with better outcomes than a weaker crew. There is just no comparison to pilot and FA checkrides.

I think a major problem in the industry, weaker crews are out there doing their jobs with same results as the strong crews 99.9% of the time. How's the airline supposed to know what is going on till it's too late? That may turn out to be the cause in the Colgan accident. We all know when a check airman is in the seat things are different.

Now how can we learn from this. I'm not sure, but I can say I'm not opposed to "the man" listening to the CVRs. It's their plane and their butt on the line with the daily flights operated. I'm paid to do a job their way so I really have no leg to stand on. I do what they tell me. I don't get to make decisions on how the company is ran when I'M NOT THE BOSS. I can provide input and suggestions, but at the end of the day, I do what they tell me or go home.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

stuckingfk said:
There is just no comparison to pilot and FA checkrides.

.
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That was never being argued at any point. What was being discussed was the concept and overall scope of checkrides in general; which is the same across the board.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

MikeD said:
That was never being argued at any point. What was being discussed was the concept and overall scope of checkrides in general; which is the same across the board.
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But are the checkrides really working?

My point was as a pilot group, we seem to be counter intuitive in regards to safety. We all know we act different when someone is watching, and maybe that's what we need.

I think of it it like this that maybe everyone has dealt with. How hard is it to tell an old person they can't drive anymore? Not an easy thing to do, just think how hard that would be to a pilot. Nobody wants to admit when they can't perform up to the standards set forth before them. Checkrides aren't set up to remove subpar pilots.

It may come out that 50 people died because of a muck up. That's a mistake of huge proportions that they paid the ultimate price for. Just sucks that they took others with them. I truly hope the community can learn from this so it doesn't happen again.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

So about this whole "chatting under 10,000'" BS we're hearing about; did anybody else notice that there's a 2 minute gap where nothing was said between when they stopped discussing the icing and when they started the approach? I wouldn't say that they were mindless chatting, they were discussing the current flight conditions and how their experience relates to them.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

stuckingfk said:
My point was as a pilot group, we seem to be counter intuitive in regards to safety.
Click to expand...

Step back a few years:

As a student, how many had a CFI...
...who flew with a cold?
...who skirted clouds to maintain "vrf" so YOU could train (gotta get those hours)?
You get the idea. Now how many, as a CFI, did the same things? Law of Primacy?
The FAA will bring the wrath of the federal government down on a pilot who goes 251 KIAS below 10k for 2 seconds, and let a 134.5 operator skate because there isn't an air carrier certificate to take action against.

The FAA will crucify a pilot for getting counseling , forgetting that they had a mole removed 25 years ago, etc. The predatory nature of the Aeromedical Branch doesn't promote a healthy lifestyle. Many pilots avoid seeking medical help because if this bs until it is too late OR when the problem is really a nonevent. Years ago, a buddy got a divorce and had gone to counseling. There was no baggage or hostility, but the Feds kept him on the ground for months until he could get letters from various specialists. Granted this was before the "kinder, gentler FAA," but those memories linger. Look at what happened to Bob Hoover.

I know this is going off on a tangent, but this just gets me! If the FAA cared about PEOPLE and not AIRLINES, then duty time wouldn't be a problem, lines would be all AM or all PM, and standups/high speeds would be 2 leg trips.

In an industry with razor thin margins, quest for the mighty buck drives the decisions and stretches the rules. We, the pilots, are not the only problem.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Yup, plenty of pilots will delay or forego a visit to their personal Doc for that very reason, all visits within 3yrs must be reported to the Feds. Now, how is THAT encouraging a healthy lifestyle?
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

deadstick said:
Step back a few years:

As a student, how many had a CFI...
...who flew with a cold?
...who skirted clouds to maintain "vrf" so YOU could train (gotta get those hours)?
You get the idea. Now how many, as a CFI, did the same things? Law of Primacy?
The FAA will bring the wrath of the federal government down on a pilot who goes 251 KIAS below 10k for 2 seconds, and let a 134.5 operator skate because there isn't an air carrier certificate to take action against.

The FAA will crucify a pilot for getting counseling , forgetting that they had a mole removed 25 years ago, etc. The predatory nature of the Aeromedical Branch doesn't promote a healthy lifestyle. Many pilots avoid seeking medical help because if this bs until it is too late OR when the problem is really a nonevent. Years ago, a buddy got a divorce and had gone to counseling. There was no baggage or hostility, but the Feds kept him on the ground for months until he could get letters from various specialists. Granted this was before the "kinder, gentler FAA," but those memories linger. Look at what happened to Bob Hoover.

I know this is going off on a tangent, but this just gets me! If the FAA cared about PEOPLE and not AIRLINES, then duty time wouldn't be a problem, lines would be all AM or all PM, and standups/high speeds would be 2 leg trips.

In an industry with razor thin margins, quest for the mighty buck drives the decisions and stretches the rules. We, the pilots, are not the only problem.
Click to expand...

I remember, heck I grew up in the "zero tolerance" FAA back when.....the Hoover affair being one of the highlights. The pendulum has swung the other way in some respects, but not in others.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

jtrain609 said:
So about this whole "chatting under 10,000'" BS we're hearing about; did anybody else notice that there's a 2 minute gap where nothing was said between when they stopped discussing the icing and when they started the approach? I wouldn't say that they were mindless chatting, they were discussing the current flight conditions and how their experience relates to them.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

Take for example this hypothetical exchange that very well could have happened, but I just made up.

ATC: Airshuttle 1234, taxi via romeo, lima and enter the ramp bravo november.
FO: Romeo, lima, bravo north, airshuttle 1234.
Capt: Romeo, lima, bravo north.... does romeo turn into lima?? *looking on airport diagram*
FO: No, have to hit mike then echo echo then lima, but as soon as romeo ends you can see the sign for lima so they dont say the intermediary taxiways.
Capt: Huh, I don't think they would get away with that at an airport like Dulles or OHare. They'd get in trouble if they didn't say the entire taxi.
FO: Maybe. I've noticed that they tend to give corporate aircraft the entire taxi instructions, maybe it is just they know we're based here and know we know the drill.
Capt: Yeah, they are a little more laid back here, it's nice.
FO: I remember flying in and out of JFK and the first few times talking to ground there. Made me feel like a retard, but they did say the entire taxi route so I guess that makes them great.


Are the bolded sections of the hypothetical conversation breaking sterile? Who gets to decide was is 'pertinent' to the flight and can be discussed in sterile?
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

SpiraMirabilis said:
Are the bolded sections of the hypothetical conversation breaking sterile? Who gets to decide was is 'pertinent' to the flight and can be discussed in sterile?
Click to expand...

You get one guess. Actually, it depends. Did you crash? Are you too dead to defend yourself?
 
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