Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings

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Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

In regards to the original post I am kinda split. If they only monitored information during sterile phases of flight I am OK with that. You should hold a certain demeanor and attitude during that phase of flight. If they are monitoring the tapes during cruise flight when you are shooting the poo and complaining about block times and work rules then they can GTFO.

CVRs, as far as I'm aware, traditionally record only the last 30 minutes of operation. So virtually all review done on successfully completed flights will not include pre-flight and takeoff.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

haha

Nice try to talk down on me...haha

I'm not discrediting your experience as a FA, but comparing FAs to Pilots is like comparing apples to oranges.

But if I did my job with the same quality as some of our FAs do, everyone on the plane would be dead.

Bottom line: Pilots have much more invested in our career than a FA does.

:banghead:

Pilots spend thousands of dollars on their ratings. I know that. I did marry one! (And I do have a PPL.) I'm not saying F/As are better than pilots or anything like that, I *never have*!!!!

It seems to me like you were telling me I have no "right" or basis to have any opinion on this subject. I do!
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

haha

Nice try to talk down on me...haha

I'm not discrediting your experience as a FA, but comparing FAs to Pilots is like comparing apples to oranges.

But if I did my job with the same quality as some of our FAs do, everyone on the plane would be dead.

Bottom line: Pilots have much more invested in our career than a FA does.

Actually the BL here is that a checkride is a checkride...yes, they differ between cockpit vs cabin crew in specifics.....but the overriding purposes of each being performed, is exactly the same.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

At AMR most F/A checkrides are "ghost rides", where the pilots (and even the F/As!) have no idea the checkride is going on.

We're getting more than a bit off-topic with bickering about F/As vs. pilots checkrides, doncha think? OF COURSE PILOTS AND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS HAVE DIFFERENT JOBS and different job duties, and the checkrides themselves will be comprised of different things. Good golly. Nobody's debating that.

MQAAord, I am not trying to down the profession of being a F/A because I have dealt with some of the scum of the earth and I am sure you have dealt with 10x the amount I have. I respect what you have done but your experience as being a F/A doesn't really play into this issue as I have been told by others on this forum.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

F/A check-rides & ground-school is a joke compared to the pilot side of things. It in no way compares to flying an airplane day in and day out. F/A's service drinks 99% of the time while all their training is handling abnormal and emergency situations. 8 months after my initial training do I remember the exact commands and isle block techniques. Nah not really but I am sure I probably could safely get everyone out. Very rarely do we have a Chief FA ride a long with us and it actually never happened to me while I was there.

See my above. MQAA is talking about the concept of what checkrides are for and their purpose, not how they're given and the responsibilities therein; nor the differences between pilot and F/A duties and responsibilities. In that realm, the concept is the same between pilots and FAs, and an opinion on same is valid.

In regards to the original post I am kinda split. If they only monitored information during sterile phases of flight I am OK with that. You should hold a certain demeanor and attitude during that phase of flight. If they are monitoring the tapes during cruise flight when you are shooting the poo and complaining about block times and work rules then they can GTFO.

How would "they" be held accountable to only monitoring that? Open that pandora's box, my friend, and it'll only pave the road to hell.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Yeah, I'm a little confused as to how "Hey look we're really important and do important stuff" translates to "Big Brother needs to watch me carefully". All those super-tough checkrides you already passed means you have steely-eyed Right Stuff performance, right? I mean, sure, maybe the Feds should be watching those nobody F/As, but we SkyGods were created flawless. So why even bother to listen, we always do everything right.

Not wanting to live in a surveillance society has nothing to do with how perfect a transportation-appliance operator you might be and everything to do with the corruption and malfeasance that necessarily comes along with increased "oversight".
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

See my above. MQAA is talking about the concept of what checkrides are for and their purpose, not how they're given and the responsibilities therein. In that realm, the concept is the same between pilots and FAs



How would "they" be held accountable to only monitoring that? Open that pandora's box, my friend, and it'll only pave the road to hell.

And what I'm talking about is the way our (pilot) checkrides are structured, are not serving their purpose to weed out the crap.

Pilot groups will never let the situation get as far where we lose our job because of a failed checkride. Company doesn't want this either. They hate swallowing the training costs more than anything. They know the odds of crashing are so astronomical, they can afford to let subpar pilots through the system still run a safe airline.

Come on people, think about it from a different angle. It is all about the money, safety comes second.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

they can afford to let crappy pilots through the system still run a safe airline.


You've no doubt considered the possibility that you're one of those crappy pilots and just don't know it yet.

If failing a checkride or doing something dumb from time to time makes someone a crappy pilot, I don't think I know any good ones.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

And what I'm talking about is the way our (pilot) checkrides are structured, are not serving their purpose to weed out the crap.

We as a group will never let them get to the point where we lose our job because of a failed checkride. Company doesn't want this either. They hate swallowing the training costs more than anything. They know the odds of crashing are so astronomical, they can afford to let crappy pilots through the system still run a safe airline.

Come on people, think about it from a different angle. It is all about the money, safety comes second.

Thats fine. Your first sentence is just where the conversation began digressing, with people arguing unrelated things. Just was trying to get that sorted out.

Since we're back on track:

The safety angle of checkrides......how they're conducted and viewed in the bigger picture....at the carriers, is certainly something to be looked at.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

You'll see a lot of erased CVR's.

There are already tools in place to evaluate and monitor pilot performance. Initial training, recurrent training, line checks, FAA route checks, live telemetry data, etc.

Monitoring CVR's will do absolutely nothing to improve safety except decrease the amount of useable data during an accident because, for the most part, the CB would have been pulled for the duration of the flight anyway.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Well, this should liven things up a bit, but here goes...

I think this whole thing may be out of context. I am not sure what Colgan management really is intending, so won't address that. However, I can say for a fact that video cameras, with audio, would help us sort out what happened in accidents and help us prevent future ones. In terms of looking at them outside the context of an accident/incident, I think it could be done much like FOQA now.

Unfortunately, despite the rhetoric, in my experience of working on both sides, I have found that the union is more likely to kill a true safety advancement for some non-safety related reason (in this case, misplaced "privacy" concerns), than is management due to a non-safety issue (usually cost). Airlines and manufacturers are constantly accused of putting $$ before safety, and, as they owe a duty to their shareholders, we do expect them to do that (and should not be mad if they do), but I have found that, in actual fact, they are rarely not reasonable about the issues. On the other side, I have seen it a lot of times, where the political side told the safety side that "we're not going to do that". It is sad, but true. Looking out for privacy is of little consolation if people might die as a result. This is NOT a normal office job!

If the information were protected through a cooperative FOQA type approach, it would be very beneficial. In fact, we might find that we would be exonerating pilots that would otherwise have been blamed in an accident due to lack of supporting evidence to point otherwise. I am fairly sure that would happen more times than not. On the other end, we might be better able to identify trends and conduct training before an accident were to occur. We would see that the pilot actually did hit a switch, but maybe it didn't quite "take" and bounced back, or they tried to push that rudder hard but a loose object (that later got knocked out of the way) prevented that control input, etc., etc.

And sorry, I do not agree that line checks and checkrides address this issue. As has been pointed out, people do behave differently when they have someone sitting there watching them in person. Knowing that it might be pulled and viewed randomly might change their behavior also, but in a positive way. More likely, like the CVR, they'd forget about it soon.

The information could be pulled, and transcribed by the union, and then a sanitized version presented to the company or handled via the union's pro stan committee, as another alternative to all of this.

Finally, just FYI, the company already owns those CVR tapes. While they likely couldn't use it in court to go after someone, what is there to stop them from just randomly pulling and listening to them now and not telling anyone? Guess what? Nothing!

So, the choice really is to make it official and have a process or just not be part of it.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Well said Seagull, said much better than I could and with much more grace.

I'm all for improving safety, but like I've said and seagull said, it will be killed by the pilot group or company for various reasons.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

The cvr is only required to retain the last 30 minutes, and all but that last 30 min may be erased. I am pretty sure that mgmt would find little info of use of they tried this, and yes I know where my breaker is.

The big thing that is/will come out of this is the trends. The Q cvr records 120 hours I think? And I have heard that the FAA listened to data ore 3407 and was not happy. While that is not related to the crash and may not be used to take action the FAA is leaning on the company hard to get the pilots in line
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

F/A check-rides & ground-school is a joke compared to the pilot side of things. It in no way compares to flying an airplane day in and day out. F/A's service drinks 99% of the time while all their training is handling abnormal and emergency situations. 8 months after my initial training do I remember the exact commands and isle block techniques. Nah not really but I am sure I probably could safely get everyone out. Very rarely do we have a Chief FA ride a long with us and it actually never happened to me while I was there.

In regards to the original post I am kinda split. If they only monitored information during sterile phases of flight I am OK with that. You should hold a certain demeanor and attitude during that phase of flight. If they are monitoring the tapes during cruise flight when you are shooting the poo and complaining about block times and work rules then they can GTFO.

Potentially the most obnoxious post since my joining of JC in December of 2007. I am not sure, no matter how much I disagreed with a persons perception, that I would demean what they were trying to say or how they were participating in a discussion simply because I felt my position was superior both in skill level and responsibility. Calling someones former responsibilities "a joke" compared with pilots is simply not a great thing. May I suggest a great book? Seriously - it is the only self-help book ever written that is worth anything:

carnegie.jpg
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Yap. Having worked 121 for 7 years, working in the training department... even teaching CRM (to combined classes) I have no credibility in discussing pilot issues.. :rolleyes: I couldn't possibly comprehend what a pilot checkride is like. :sarcasm:

I've made my points here about this topic, and I have the experience and credibility to have a basis for my opinions.

edit: You'll notice I didn't say others don't have a right to their opinion. They do. I will not attack, throw names, or anything else at someone who's opinion differs from mine. But please don't try to discredit my experience.

You are right, you really DON'T have any idea what a pilot checkride is like. You potentially have your job on the line with every checkride and along with that, your career. If you fail a FA checkride, you may have to send out some new resumes and lose a little seniority, if you fail a pilot ride and lose your job, you may not be able to find a job. They have this little think called PRIA that discloses all your previous busts, so other companies know everything.

As far as the topic of this thread, I think it is a terrible idea to listen to the CVR randomly to look for sterile cockpit violations. They have FOQA data to use to see if we are flying correctly, we don't need management peeking over our shoulder any more. I agree that sterile cockpit is important and also that there is too much talking going on sometimes during sterile cockpit, but I don't need someone listening to me. That said, if I am flying with someone that is continually talking during sterile cockpit, I usually just stop responding besides the normal callouts and that seems to take care of the situation. It takes 2 to have a conversation. When we are short final, I don't need to hear about your deer hunting story from last weekend, tell me when we're at the gate.
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I know of at least one fatal accident in recent history that can be attributed to lack of situational awareness while the crew was chatting during the whole thing. Explain how these recorders are going to have a negative impact on safety? I think safety takes priority over anything else.

Those colgan pilots took a perfectly good airplane and crashed it. It probably wasn't the first time they made bad decisions. What's so wrong about being held accountable for what you do or say while you have dozens of lives in your hands?
 
Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I know of at least one fatal accident in recent history that can be attributed to lack of situational awareness while the crew was chatting during the whole thing. Explain how these recorders are going to have a negative impact on safety? I think safety takes priority over anything else.

Those colgan pilots took a perfectly good airplane and crashed it. It probably wasn't the first time they made bad decisions. What's so wrong about being held accountable for what you do or say while you have dozens of lives in your hands?

It will degrade safety, because CVR's will not have any info on them. Crews will pull circuit breakers or refuse to fly.
 
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