Brakes, reverse, landing techniques.

[GypsyPilot]

Once again my dudes. The only place this has been an issue is good old J.C.


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I’ve just never heard of it, and am not a fan of reaching up and doing non-standard things during a landing roll.

If you were my FO, I’d be asking why you’re doing that and what guidance you have for it. If you had something to back it up, great!

 

[bimmerphile]

I know this is a classic thread but, normal landing in a turbofan aircraft: brakes primary, or TRs? Does it make a difference if you’re flying carbon vs steel? Do you wait for nosewheel touchdown before popping the buckets (it’s recommended for my airframe)?
Since I work for a 135 and we have zero standardization, every FO I’ve flown with does things a little different. Based on my understanding of carbon brakes, I primarily use brakes to slow on landing and unless it’s a short runway usually only go idle reverse. Then for taxi if I find I want to ride the brakes I’ll instead pop one bucket. Again, because of my understanding of the care and feeding of carbon brakes.

on the 145 I'd deploy the reversers at idle once the mains were on. depending on LDA would either aerobrake like that and hold nose off or get the nose down and spool if it was short, then transition to brakes as appropriate to hit the turnoff I was aiming for (carbon brakes) in the 100-90ish kt regime as we start to bring reverse back to idle
the bus doesn't have brake fans, so we use max reverse a lot. but that requires an extra minute of cool down time and we can't taxi with reversers deployed so thats typically an extra minute of the CA riding the brakes, since idle thrust on the IAE motors is pretty high and you can scoot at almost any weight below max structural landing weight. if we have enough runway and a long taxi I normally just aerobrake at idle reverse to about 100kt so we can SE taxi in after 2 min cooldown

 

[Old Pete]

Once again my dudes. The only place this has been an issue is good old J.C.


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I’m not sure what you are getting at? You come here, and say “I’ve got this great new technique, that nobody else does..” what the hell do you want? High fives and back slaps? So far I think it’s been gentle.

 

[Ian_J]

I’m not sure what you are getting at? You come here, and say “I’ve got this great new technique, that nobody else does..” what the hell do you want? High fives and back slaps? So far I think it’s been gentle.

Exactly. There isn’t an “issue,” Beef… we’re pretty nicely saying we’ve never heard of this technique. Some are also saying it probably wouldn’t fly at their shops. But if your shop is good with it, great! And if I ever see someone do it I’ll at least have heard of it before.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Exactly. There isn’t an “issue,” Beef… we’re pretty nicely saying we’ve never heard of this technique. Some are also saying it probably wouldn’t fly at their shops. But if your shop is good with it, great! And if I ever see someone do it I’ll at least have heard of it before.

I’ve been doing it for over 2 years now at least and the only place it’s been mentioned as an issue is here on JC.

I’d think if it was that big of a deal someone would have mentioned it by now? I used it again last night flying with another great captain.

The wind was blowing a stink out of the north. Reported +/- 15 gain loss and a UUP from one of our company aircraft read over center freq for windshear specific to ANC. We were too heavy for a flaps 15 landing on our oldest 900. The one without winglets. The first time I’ve landed 33 at ANC.

All the captain said was the SOP call “autobrakes disarmed”. And “Nice job” as we taxied in. Can’t think of anything else mentioned. The super senior ANC captain jumpseater didn’t say anything either.

About a month or two ago a captain didn’t want me to use autobrakes 3 at PHX because he was afraid we’d stop on the runway or something. So I changed it to 2. It’s the only feedback I’ve gotten on a briefing that I can recall in the last 2-3 years.

If it was a big deal I’d think someone would have mentioned it. I don’t do CQ until November but I’ll ask them then about it. It only seems to be an issue with you guys.


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[Ian_J]

I’ve been doing it for over 2 years now at least and the only place it’s been mentioned as an issue is here on JC.

I’d think if it was that big of a deal someone would have mentioned it by now? I used it again last night flying with another great captain.

The wind was blowing a stink out of the north. Reported +/- 15 gain loss and a UUP from one of our company aircraft read over center freq for windshear specific to ANC. We were too heavy for a flaps 15 landing on our oldest 900. The one without winglets. The first time I’ve landed 33 at ANC.

All the captain said was the SOP call “autobrakes disarmed”. And “Nice job” as we taxied in. Can’t think of anything else mentioned. The super senior ANC captain jumpseater didn’t say anything either.

About a month or two ago a captain didn’t want me to use autobrakes 3 at PHX because he was afraid we’d stop on the runway or something. So I changed it to 2. It’s the only feedback I’ve gotten on a briefing that I can recall in the last 2-3 years.

If it was a big deal I’d think someone would have mentioned it. I don’t do CQ until November but I’ll ask them then about it. It only seems to be an issue with you guys.


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Cool, man. I guess when I typed “it’s not an issue, I just never never heard of it before” it didn’t show up on your screen.

 

[bimmerphile]

It only seems to be an issue with you guys.

I don't think its a problem that would require a debrief from another crewmember, hence the lack of input from your CAs, but it's a technique that none of us are familiar with and it's in a thread discussing technique so I'd not get so defensive about it. Most replies have been civil

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

?



At my place (and my previous ones, as well) reaching up and manipulating a control while rolling out would definitely not be approved. The FAA doesn’t even want you to reposition light switches off or disarm the boards until the aircraft is completely across the lines.

Doing what you’re describing (allowing for understanding it’s a different airline and a different airframe) would definitely be a no-no in my experience.

this is where I say “I didn’t come here to admonish or argue,” just spittin facts. Take it or leave it.

I don't think its a problem that would require a debrief from another crewmember, hence the lack of input from your CAs, but it's a technique that none of us are familiar with and it's in a thread discussing technique so I'd not get so defensive about it. Most replies have been civil

 

[bimmerphile]

"at my place" "in my experience"
we're having a topical discussion, if someone is presenting a counterpoint to your technique then drop some FOM references or Boeing knowledge on us instead

 

[Ian_J]

I am super confused. Hasn't this been a civil discussion? Did I miss something? WTF is gong on here? Why in the world does it seem like he thinks people are out to get him?

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

"at my place" "in my experience"
we're having a topical discussion, if someone is presenting a counterpoint to your technique then drop some FOM references or Boeing knowledge on us instead

It’s a two way street…


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[roundout]

I bet it's easier to find guidance to not do this than it is to find anything to support it. I'll give you a hint - the verbiage is more likely to be in your Vol 1 than in your Vol 2. If not there, it's in AC-120-74.

Somewhere out there, there's an AA Airbus crew who can tell you first-hand why it's a bad idea to go selecting brake stuff while rolling down the runway. The BRAKE FAN and AUTOBRK MAX switches are really close to each other!

 

[mikecweb]

Someone messaged me to comment on this thread since I have previous experience in Lear jets. I've been really conflicted to even comment with the back and forth that's already unfortunately started but to try and contribute and then escape...

I would first go straight to the flight manual on any limitations. The OP mentioned nose wheel on the ground prior to deploying the thrust reversers. That's usually best practice on every airplane I've flown and a limitation on some. Especially on tail mounted engines the aerodynamic effects while deploying the reversers with the nose in the air can lead to less than desirable outcomes.

As far as brake use, I don't believe the Lear the OP is flying has autobrakes, probably just a version of antiskid. I've always traded brakes and t/r use depending on when the aircraft is taking off again. For the aircraft I've flown with autobrakes, they use a deceleration rate based on something (IRUs on the MD11). So if you set an autobrake setting and use max reverse vs. idle reverse, you are going to turn off at the same intersection with the only difference being brake wear but more importantly brake temperature. The OP flies medevac so if I was going into an airport to then turn around and takeoff in a fairly short period of time I would minimize brake use and maximize thrust reversers. I want the best brakes possible for my next potential rejected takeoff. The practice of popping a T/R vs. dragging brakes was common when I flew light jets. In heavy's we just shut engines down to slow the taxi speed.

For the most part thrust reversers make a lot of noise but where they really make a difference is on contaminated runways where braking action is reduced.

As far as everything else in here, the AFM doesn't say you can't close your eyes on landing, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

fly safe.

Cheers!

 

[ppragman]

As far as everything else in here, the AFM doesn't say you can't close your eyes on landing, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Quote of the year.

 

[Roger Roger]

Someone messaged me to comment on this thread since I have previous experience in Lear jets. I've been really conflicted to even comment with the back and forth that's already unfortunately started but to try and contribute and then escape...

Always appreciate hearing from ya, and at least it’s not a political lav dumpster fire.

I would first go straight to the flight manual on any limitations. The OP mentioned nose wheel on the ground prior to deploying the thrust reversers. That's usually best practice on every airplane I've flown and a limitation on some. Especially on tail mounted engines the aerodynamic effects while deploying the reversers with the nose in the air can lead to less than desirable outcomes.

I need to go back in the books and find the wording on this. I’ve been told it from multiple people but I can’t remember now what the AFM says and how it says it.

The OP flies medevac so if I was going into an airport to then turn around and takeoff in a fairly short period of time I would minimize brake use and maximize thrust reversers. I want the best brakes possible for my next potential rejected takeoff.

This is not something I had previously considered, good point.

 

[Ian_J]

The Guppy Manual at Air Bachelor specifically says not to wait for the nose wheel to touch before deploying reversers. It also says autobrakes shall be used if operational. And it basically says don’t touch nothing from the landing roll till clear of the runway.

 

[Roger Roger]

And it basically says don’t touch nothing from the landing roll till clear of the runway.

I had an FO last rotation who, as PF, started retracting spoilers and flaps on the landing roll. That was a debrief item.

 

[BobDDuck]

I had an FO last rotation who, as PF, started retracting spoilers and flaps on the landing roll. That was a debrief item.

RAISING THE FLAPS IN THE FLARE = BANNED!

But for real... On the medium size (WB) bus, we are required to use autobrakes but can disengage them whenever we want during the roll out. Proper technique is to use the pedals to disconnect but apparently some airplane that was operated here in the distant past had a procedure for pressing the button to disengage, so sometimes guys will call for that instead of doing it themselves with their feet. Changing the setting (2 to 1) is totally verboten though once you've touched down.

TRs to idle as soon as the back of the mains are on the ground. Coming out of idle reverse before you get the front of the main boogies spinning is a rookie mistake that has kind of unpleasant consequences. You can go to max reverse with the nose in the air but do need to be aware of airspeed so you can fly the nose to the ground.

Spoilers do most of the stopping. Brakes help a bunch TRs mostly just make noise.

 

[SrFnFly227]

Flying the same plane as the OP, my technique is somewhat situational dependent as my company flies in to both 4000 and 10000 ft runways. Home base, the turn off in either direction is 6000-6400 ft down the 9000 ft runway and idle reverse will usually get me to taxi speed without any brakes.

Touch down and open the reversers while controlling the nose wheel touchdown. Once the nose wheel is down, reversers stay at idle or maybe go to half thrust as they really aren't all that effective. Brakes are applied as necessary to take the exit I briefed during the approach brief.

 

[spbrian]

I know that in the dinosaur gulfstream that I fly with Carbon Brakes, we have gotten an enormous amount of life out of them by..

Main wheels on the ground, deploying the TR's, spooling slightly above idle and then; runway depending, IDLE TR's from 60 knots to normal taxi and beginning light wheel braking utilizing one continuous application. And of course minimizing as much as possible applications during taxi, but if utilizing them during taxi to always attempt to do one continuous application and keep modulations down as much as possible. Records show the oldest brake on the plane was replaced in March of 2001 (21 years and 2 months) and 3300 landings ago.