Brakes, reverse, landing techniques.

[Roger Roger]

I know this is a classic thread but, normal landing in a turbofan aircraft: brakes primary, or TRs? Does it make a difference if you’re flying carbon vs steel? Do you wait for nosewheel touchdown before popping the buckets (it’s recommended for my airframe)?
Since I work for a 135 and we have zero standardization, every FO I’ve flown with does things a little different. Based on my understanding of carbon brakes, I primarily use brakes to slow on landing and unless it’s a short runway usually only go idle reverse. Then for taxi if I find I want to ride the brakes I’ll instead pop one bucket. Again, because of my understanding of the care and feeding of carbon brakes.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

It doesn't get better at any 121, regional or major in my experience. Nothing is standardized. Even if it is.

The bigger the aircraft the MORE it matters in my opinion. At my shop the NG does not have carbon brakes the MAX does. So I started treating everything like the MAX. Autobrakes all the time. I paid a lot of attention to my TR technique. I also followed the guidance for using TRs exactly like the training department wanted us to.

I land at Autobrakes 3 and calmy reach up and switch it to 2 during the landing roll. Its the smoothest deceleration I have ever felt. Then I turn it off and slowly apply manual brakes. The brakes never get too hot and don't chatter around like I am certain we have all felt. Its easy it works every time. Very few crews use it.

 

[Ian_J]

It doesn't get better at any 121, regional or major in my experience. Nothing is standardized. Even if it is.

The bigger the aircraft the MORE it matters in my opinion. At my shop the NG does not have carbon brakes the MAX does. So I started treating everything like the MAX. Autobrakes all the time. I paid a lot of attention to my TR technique. I also followed the guidance for using TRs exactly like the training department wanted us to.

I land at Autobrakes 3 and calmy reach up and switch it to 2 during the landing roll. Its the smoothest deceleration I have ever felt. Then I turn it off and slowly apply manual brakes. The brakes never get too hot and don't chatter around like I am certain we have all felt. Its easy it works every time. Very few crews use it.

You turn the auto brakes knob during the landing roll?

 

[GypsyPilot]

You turn the auto brakes knob during the landing roll?

I was going to ask about that too. Personally, I would recommend against that unless there’s something from Boeing I’m unaware of.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Yes. I turn it during the landing roll. My feet are on the brakes and they are backing the system up. Is there written guidance that recommends otherwise?

I haven't found anything but if there is I'd love to know about it.

 

[Minuteman]

What I've been told about steel vs carbon is that steel wears faster with heat while carbon wear faster with the number of cold/cool applications.

Both of which are really more of a factor during taxi than the landing roll, even for Djug. The different could be, on that long, straight, slightly-downhill taxiway to the threshold, you're periodically applying firm brakes then releasing, while the other you're almost dragging the brakes the whole way (or you pop one bucket to look like a cool operator).

 

[Ian_J]

Yes. I turn it during the landing roll. My feet are on the brakes and they are backing the system up. Is there written guidance that recommends otherwise?

I haven't found anything but if there is I'd love to know about it.

I just never heard of doing that and have never seen anyone do that before. I guess I’d wonder why not just use the brakes to disconnect the auto brakes if you don’t like what they’re doing and just brake on your own? It seems distracting to remove your hand from the reversers, find the knob, then come back to the reversers, all while looking outside to stay on centerline. Really, not sharp shooting - just curious.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I just never heard of doing that and have never seen anyone do that before. I guess I’d wonder why not just use the brakes to disconnect the auto brakes if you don’t like what they’re doing and just brake on your own? It seems distracting to remove your hand from the reversers, find the knob, then come back to the reversers, all while looking outside to stay on centerline. Really, not sharp shooting - just curious.

Yeah I'm over here waiting on the JC: "SeE wE aLwaYS kNEw YoU WerE aN iDiOT" crowd to turn up...

It's not distracting at all. Contaminated runways with winds gusting to Wizard of Oz levels, it's the best way to disconnect the autobrakes. I've never had an issue with maintaining centerline with this technique. Landed at JFK a few nights ago and it worked perfectly. It works perfectly in SE Alaska. I couldn't think of a more challenging environment.

Disconnecting the autobrakes with manual braking usually results in a lot of bucky stopping because it's really difficult to match the deceleration rate with the brake pedals. Which I'm guessing is the reason that so few pilots use autobrakes.

This all proves my point. There is no standardization when it comes to brakes and TRs even at a major airline. Our last quarterly CBTs had guidance on how to use the TRs. You leave them open until the engines have spooled to idle. So you don't create an acceleration force when you're trying to stop. No one except for one captain does this. I even took a screenshot of the CBT slide and I show captains. No one knows about it.

 

[Ian_J]

Yeah I'm over here waiting on the JC: "SeE wE aLwaYS kNEw YoU WerE aN iDiOT" crowd to turn up...

It's not distracting at all. Contaminated runways with winds gusting to Wizard of Oz levels, it's the best way to disconnect the autobrakes. I've never had an issue with maintaining centerline with this technique. Landed at JFK a few nights ago and it worked perfectly. It works perfectly in SE Alaska. I couldn't think of a more challenging environment.

Disconnecting the autobrakes with manual braking usually results in a lot of bucky stopping because it's really difficult to match the deceleration rate with the brake pedals. Which I'm guessing is the reason that so few pilots use autobrakes.

This all proves my point. There is no standardization when it comes to brakes and TRs even at a major airline. Our last quarterly CBTs had guidance on how to use the TRs. You leave them open until the engines have spooled to idle. So you don't create an acceleration force when you're trying to stop. No one except for one captain does this. I even took a screenshot of the CBT slide and I show captains. No one knows about it.

Interesting! Weird how airlines can be so different. At mine, auto brakes are mandatory and everyone knows to leave the reversers open till the engines are at idle.

 

[Ian_J]

I’ll also add (and I’m super new to the 737, I’ve only flown it for two years so my experience is pretty light) that since my airline uses auto brakes every time and disconnects them with their feet every time, in my very little bit of experience I haven’t seen an issue with jerkyness or differing decelerations when doing so. Maybe it happens at your shop because they rarely use auto brakes and aren’t used to them?

 

[GypsyPilot]

I’ll also add (and I’m super new to the 737, I’ve only flown it for two years so my experience is pretty light) that since my airline uses auto brakes every time and disconnects them with their feet every time, in my very little bit of experience I haven’t seen an issue with jerkyness or differing decelerations when doing so. Maybe it happens at your shop because they rarely use auto brakes and aren’t used to them?

I agree, using feet works fine if you’re used to it.

Most of the time we’re landing close to MGLW, so keeping the brakes from getting too hot is a concern. I usually use AB3, full reverse (popping the buckets before nose touchdown), and then disconnect ABs decelerating through 80 kts.

It works well for a heavy 767-3 for keeping the brake temps below 5, and it’s smooth.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I agree, using feet works fine if you’re used to it.

Most of the time we’re landing close to MGLW, so keeping the brakes from getting too hot is a concern. I usually use AB3, full reverse (popping the buckets before nose touchdown), and then disconnect ABs decelerating through 80 kts.

It works well for a heavy 767-3 for keeping the brake temps below 5, and it’s smooth.

We are describing the same technique for a much different aircraft.

With the exception that I reach up and turn the brakes off with my hand sometime between 100-80 knots.

Sometimes I select 2 on the way to OFF and it gives me more time to select off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I’ll also add (and I’m super new to the 737, I’ve only flown it for two years so my experience is pretty light) that since my airline uses auto brakes every time and disconnects them with their feet every time, in my very little bit of experience I haven’t seen an issue with jerkyness or differing decelerations when doing so. Maybe it happens at your shop because they rarely use auto brakes and aren’t used to them?

Probably happens for the reason you describe but who knows


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[luke3]

I'd say it's very airframe dependent and hard to make a generalization. A lot of my time is behind G-IIIs with poorly rigged brakes and G-IVs with brake-by-wire, both of which can be very squirrely. I therefore got into the habit of using mainly reversers and then smoothly starting to get on the brakes around 80kts. Buckets out as soon as the mains touched down then spooled once the nose came down. It was a habit reinforced while I was at JSX where if you didn't do that in PHX or LAS in the hot summer months, you weren't making your 20 minute turn. Depending on the FADEC version some of those ERJs let you pop the buckets with the nose in the air and others didn't. Of course landing in CCR I'd use both from the get go since performance was critical.

Now in the Bus I always use autobrakes instead. On the 320 NEO we've been told that they're prone to coking of the fuel nozzles during high reverse thrust applications so try to keep it at idle reverse and use the primarily brakes unless really necessary. Plus brake fans are incredibly effective. On the flipside the 321 CEO has no such issue and likes to smoke the brakes. Ours don't have brake fans so it's max reverse most of the time.

 

[roundout]

It doesn't get better at any 121, regional or major in my experience. Nothing is standardized. Even if it is.

?

I land at Autobrakes 3 and calmy reach up and switch it to 2 during the landing roll.

At my place (and my previous ones, as well) reaching up and manipulating a control while rolling out would definitely not be approved. The FAA doesn’t even want you to reposition light switches off or disarm the boards until the aircraft is completely across the lines.

Doing what you’re describing (allowing for understanding it’s a different airline and a different airframe) would definitely be a no-no in my experience.

this is where I say “I didn’t come here to admonish or argue,” just spittin facts. Take it or leave it.

 

[Old Pete]

Yes. I turn it during the landing roll. My feet are on the brakes and they are backing the system up. Is there written guidance that recommends otherwise?

I haven't found anything but if there is I'd love to know about it.

Do you brief it? It’s certainly different.

 

[Old Pete]

I’ll also add (and I’m super new to the 737, I’ve only flown it for two years so my experience is pretty light) that since my airline uses auto brakes every time and disconnects them with their feet every time, in my very little bit of experience I haven’t seen an issue with jerkyness or differing decelerations when doing so. Maybe it happens at your shop because they rarely use auto brakes and aren’t used to them?

I notice it, both as a passenger, and a pilot although I’m not on the 737. I’ve never noticed it on any other types (as a passenger) not the 717, 320, etc doesn’t matter whether it WN or DL I feel it and know what it is. I’m thinking of just turning the things off, allowed by our manuals. It’s annoying.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Once again my dudes. The only place this has been an issue is good old J.C.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bimmerphile]

how does this techcedure work from the left seat? I don't fly the 73 but I thought the rotary switch was on the right side of the panel

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

how does this techcedure work from the left seat? I don't fly the 73 but I thought the rotary switch was on the right side of the panel

It’s center like 6 inches displaced to the right side. So like a little different but not much.

In the max it’s in the center but much lower. It’s not very dramatic for either pilot to reach…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk