Boutique doing Boutique things

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Amazing FSDO's will spend their time going after an operator using 2 crew to be safe and force them not to, but they'll let Jerry fly over homes and populated areas despite numerous violations and safety hazards willingly posted on YouTube and do nothing about it.

Weird flex, but ok.

I don’t get it. Didn’t the online mob report some military guy for calling clear of the runway as he was just rolling through the runway clear lines? And he actually did get investigated. Why does Jerry get a free pass?

 

[derg]

Not sure how closely most of JC follows the 135 world, but Boutique has had some... unfortunate developments lately.

It kicked off about ten days ago, when the Fargo FSDO -- which Boutique switched to last year -- informed management that Boutique's Pilot Development Program was not up to spec and that it should discontinue using First Officers. All were immediately furloughed, and those at outstations found themselves riding home in the back.

It ramped up today. This morning, the CEO released a letter he sent to the FAA protesting the decision. That's nice, but what the letter revealed -- and what pilots were not informed of previously -- is that the FSDO has also determined that all First Officers' flight time should be invalidated. The letter's attached, if you're the kind that enjoys watching spiders swirl around before being flushed down the drain.

As for Boutique's FOs... I don't know. I'm one of them (formerly), and I received the news about fifteen minutes before an interview with Skywest today. If it's accurate, 250 hours just evaporated from my logbook and I'm going to have to go back to trying to find an hour building job. That's turning out to be exceedingly difficult when you at the 1000+ hour range, because most low hour gigs don't want to hire people with such "high" time, given most head off to the airlines soon after.

Incidentally, if anyone knows of an opportunity, especially in Seattle or Denver, please let me know... because I'm kind of f'd. I've already lost two flight jobs due to COVID, but this latest turn... it's a rough one.

Ungh, what a crock of a situation. Sorry man, but I’ll be on the lookout.

If anyone is reading this that doesn’t already know Ross, I know him personally and recommend him for whatever opportunity you may have for him.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Come on, the Twin Cessnas aren’t that complicated. Any airline pilot would have no problem in my 421 after a few hours in it. The problem comes in when guys move to them from singles and light twins, usually with under 1k hours. It’s entirely too much plane for them.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Says the guy who flew an MU2

Come on, the Twin Cessnas aren’t that complicated.

Ok, I grant that the MU-2 cockpit probably looks even more like a WW2 submarine, but MU-2s don't shock cool (or really have engine failures at all, comparatively). They also still have LOTS of power if you do lose one. Also no pistons/rods/all that other reciprocating mass going up and down and every other damned direction just wearing against each other, biding their time...

There's a reason you basically never see a 414 anymore. I grant you that's an outlier accident-rate-wise (something about a too-small tail, I think?), but piston twins, esp. cabin class piston twins with those great big finicky engine are to be taken seriously, imho. Unlike the people who fly them. @SlumTodd_Millionaire

 

[killbilly]

It is my "opinion" that even if the flying was "illegal" due to not having the OpSpec, that you can still log any leg where you were the sole manipulator as PIC, Per CFR 61.51. I'd argue that all day long. You were at the controls, you were rated catagory and class.

For example, if a private pilot who is only rated to fly single engine airplanes decides to go out and steal a 747. If he manages to take off, and is flying solo, can he log PIC? Per 61.51 he can. Will he get his private pilot license pulled? Most likely! But can they make him delete the 1 hour of PIC time he has in it? I don't see how they can.

Ah....no. You specified an airplane that would require a type rating. So while it's cat/class, that private pilot CANNOT act as PIC of that airplane, nor SIC, and thus logging it isn't valid.

MU-2 was mentioned later in the thread. That airplane, while under 12,500 pounds, requires SFAR training equivalent to a type. So that private (or commercial) pilot rated cat/class can't legitimately log sole manipulator in that airplane, either.

 

[milleR]

Says the guy who flew an MU2

The MU-2 is much simpler than a 400 series Cessna in many ways yet the consequences of poor training and/or laziness are equivalent.

 

[Richman]

Ok, I grant that the MU-2 cockpit probably looks even more like a WW2 submarine, but MU-2s don't shock cool (or really have engine failures at all, comparatively). They also still have LOTS of power if you do lose one. Also no pistons/rods/all that other reciprocating mass going up and down and every other damned direction just wearing against each other, biding their time...

There's a reason you basically never see a 414 anymore. I grant you that's an outlier accident-rate-wise (something about a too-small tail, I think?), but piston twins, esp. cabin class piston twins with those great big finicky engine are to be taken seriously, imho. Unlike the people who fly them. @SlumTodd_Millionaire

Big piston twins like 421s, 414s, Navajos, etc, at this point are all going on 40 years old, if not older.

They were always fussy, but there was the infrastructure, dealer networks, parts support and knowledgeable mechanics not just available, but commonly available.

These days, trying to get into a shop that knows WTF they’re doing with a simple Comanche is usually a 3 state journey. For something like a big twin, you’re going to have to be pretty proactive.

I have a hard time seeing how someone lackadaisical can operate one today without simply throwing huge gobs of money at it. The kind of money that’s better spent on a turbine. But more than just that, it’s hassle and dispatch reliability. Unless you just happened to be based at an airport that has an expert, sounds like a big PITA.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Big piston twins like 421s, 414s, Navajos, etc, at this point are all going on 40 years old, if not older.

They were always fussy, but there was the infrastructure, dealer networks, parts support and knowledgeable mechanics not just available, but commonly available.

These days, trying to get into a shop that knows WTF they’re doing with a simple Comanche is usually a 3 state journey. For something like a big twin, you’re going to have to be pretty proactive.

I have a hard time seeing how someone lackadaisical can operate one today without simply throwing huge gobs of money at it. The kind of money that’s better spent on a turbine. But more than just that, it’s hassle and dispatch reliability. Unless you just happened to be based at an airport that has an expert, sounds like a big PITA.

All true. So true.

 

[Fixtur]

My shop operates three Senecas and a Navajo. It works I think because

1. The airplanes are always flying. Nothing kills large machinery faster than disuse.
2. We have that expert AP on salary who knows these machines like the back of his hand.

 

[Rosstafari]

Well, uh, the good news was my interview seemed to go well. The bad news was I got the TBNT email, and after speaking with one of the recruiters, they suggested that the 135 time issue makes me too hot for OO to touch. I mean, I get it... when you have plenty of applicants who don't bring that kind of baggage with them...

Keep a good attitude and don't give up. You really were handed a crap sandwich. I am so sorry and frustrated for you. I wouldn't give up on your interview just yet either since you mentioned they were discussing the class dates with you. They know you have and flew the hours regardless of what the FAA decides. Something positive may come from this yet.

Thanks Gerry (and everyone else). The confidence boosters are genuinely helpful and timely right now - it's one of those weeks. Y'all are fantastic and I owe everyone several beers, or whatever else I'm able to raid from the lounge self-service area.

Have you personally received a Letter of Investigation from the FAA yet? Those hours count until being told directly from the FAA that they no longer do. And at the speed of government it could be a very long time before anything happens.

That's a great point. We have not received one, no.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Well, uh, the good news was my interview seemed to go well. The bad news was I got the TBNT email, and after speaking with one of the recruiters, they suggested that the 135 time issue makes me too hot for OO to touch. I mean, I get it... when you have plenty of applicants who don't bring that kind of baggage with them...

I'd apply to other regionals. The likes of Horizon, Endeavor, Republic, Air Wisconsin or. . . Mesa. And see if they give you a different answer. Good luck.

 

[Hiboglossi]

I'd apply to other regionals. The likes of Horizon, Endeavor, Republic, Air Wisconsin or. . . Mesa. And see if they give you a different answer. Good luck.

Yes, a lot of regionals seem to be having trouble recruiting right now, including mine. Might as well apply to the others and hopefully one of them will be willing to make do with the "baggage".

 

[Richman]

Well, uh, the good news was my interview seemed to go well. The bad news was I got the TBNT email, and after speaking with one of the recruiters, they suggested that the 135 time issue makes me too hot for OO to touch. I mean, I get it... when you have plenty of applicants who don't bring that kind of baggage with them...



Thanks Gerry (and everyone else). The confidence boosters are genuinely helpful and timely right now - it's one of those weeks. Y'all are fantastic and I owe everyone several beers, or whatever else I'm able to raid from the lounge self-service area.



That's a great point. We have not received one, no.

You might want to just grab a job CFIing. You could probably log the time you need faster than waiting for a resolution.

 

[ppragman]

You might want to just grab a job CFIing. You could probably log the time you need faster than waiting for a resolution.

A FSDO can’t invalidate that flight time. Until there is a chief counsel opinion, all that time was legit.

the feds had approved the PDP before, so if they want to end it, that’s fine,you obviously can’t log more time there even if you weren’t fired, but the program was approved

the FSDO can’t interpret

 

[Richman]

A FSDO can’t invalidate that flight time. Until there is a chief counsel opinion, all that time was legit.

the feds had approved the PDP before, so if they want to end it, that’s fine,you obviously can’t log more time there even if you weren’t fired, but the program was approved

the FSDO can’t interpret

But the reality is that until that makes it through the drama of getting resolved, they could be SOL. Better to bang out the time that wait a long time for a train that may or may not come.

 

[ppragman]

But the reality is that until that makes it through the drama of getting resolved, they could be SOL. Better to bang out the time that wait a long time for a train that may or may not come.

i disagree. Get hired and fly as much as you can. If (big if, and I think it’s unlikely) an unfavorable chief counsel opinion gets made, he may already have the hours so that it’s not an issue. If he doesn’t have the hours, then at least he’ll have a union witha legal team to help him out.

regardless, if they had the op spec for SIC PDP during the time he was there, provided he complied with the requirements of the PDP that time is legal. The FAA can’t retroactively do that.

that is like rescinding an IFR training program and then saying the pilots aren’t current because they flew without proper training do this the previous IFR flying didn’t count! It’s nonsense, and the FSDO is wrong, that’s not how it works.

BootyCare is stupid, that isn’t up for debate, but the FSDO is out to lunch on this. In particular, they’re actually violating their own guidance in the 8900 - they are supposed to encourage the PDP program. As long as Boutique had the Opspec and he complied with the requirements in his manuals for logging time, that flight time is legal and they can’t take it away from him.

source: I wrote an FAA PDP for an air taxi

 

[Boris Badenov]

I don't think it's obvious who's right here, if anyone is, but I've made it a personal goal to stay off ANY FSDO's radar. Which is not to say that I've always succeeded, but I've never stuck my head in the lion's mouth VOLUNTARILY. IMHO, the time to stand on righteousness and process is after you've gotten to wherever it is you want to be. Which is not to say that anyone above is incorrect about the finer points of the Law, it's just that there's how it's supposed to work and how it does work...

 

[ppragman]

I don't think it's obvious who's right here, if anyone is, but I've made it a personal goal to stay off ANY FSDO's radar. Which is not to say that I've always succeeded, but I've never stuck my head in the lion's mouth VOLUNTARILY. IMHO, the time to stand on righteousness and process is after you've gotten to wherever it is you want to be. Which is not to say that anyone above is incorrect about the finer points of the Law, it's just that there's how it's supposed to work and how it does work...

honestly, they just don’t have that power.

Then invalidating flight time (provided it was done IAW the PDP etc) isn’t something that they can do.

a lot of people are afraid of the FSDO, it’s pretty unjustified. They really don’t have the power most people think they do

 

[ppragman]

The right response in the interview is this: “I was an SIC at BootyCare, when the FAA ended their SIC program we all got laid off.”

Until there’s a chief counsel decision, those hours are yours @Rosstafari

 

[Boris Badenov]

They really don’t have the power most people think they do

You obviously know more about it than I do, and I'm sure you're right, in the aggregate. But we all know the Hoover story. If some dude makes you his Mission, yeah, you might win in the end, but at what cost? Which is I'm sure the entire POINT of persecuting famous people, to keep the rest of our heads down and unwilling to fight back. Well, it works. *shrug*. As average-at-best as I may be at flying airplanes, you really don't want to see me try my hand at anything else, and neither do I.