Boss needs a jet

[Cessnaflyer]

What's his fixed cost budget per year?

It is fairly high he hasn't given us a specific number other than he was worried about getting an older aircraft that could become a maintenance nightmare. He has pretty good numbers from other operators and friends in the area so he is fully aware of what this will cost him.

 

[smack300]

Didn't realize that the fuel burn of a FA50 is actually lower than the Hawker 800xp. I guess I just figured more engines more fuel burn.

 

[PositionAndHold]

The company is rapidly expanding and our King Air isn't fulfilling all of our needs. We will probably keep the King Air because we do go into back country and small airports. The jet will be used for the longer distance stuff from the Pacific Northwest to the East coast area. It is usually 4 to 6 pax with about 30lbs of bags each. Here is what the boss has put in front of us to figure out.

He is really into the Lear 45 but the problem is I think we would really be stretching range when we head back to the West.

He also likes the idea of picking up an older Challenger that is cheap but he is worried about maintenance because of cost and that we only have one mechanic on staff.

He doesn't like the G150 because his friends dropped it because they felt it had excessive fuel burn.

What other options that we could be overlooking?

Budget is in the 4 million range.

If he can deal with a stop going cross country the Lear 45 is perfect. You could probably get one in that price range, especially since their going to start Lear 75 deliveries soon and people might start to trade up. That might bump up the used inventory a bit. If you are looking at one, plan on a stop going both directions going coast to coast. You could push it going eastbound but only if you've got perfect winds from the first 10 minutes that last all the way and more then perfect wx on the east coast. With one 20-30 min stop you'll have more than enough gas when you get to your destination. That equals plenty of options if wx moves in. The longest flight I've done has been 4:25 and we had right at 1,000lbs at landing. Some people will go down to 800-900lbs, but 1,000lbs is plenty comfortable in good weather

I fly a 2005 with just over 2,000tt on the engines/airframe. It's not quite showing its age but we have had a few issues lately. In about 4 years of flying we've only had to put people on an airline flight back once, and canceled a flight at home once as well. We've broken on the road but we were able to get the issue solved with out a delay in the schedule.

It's a great airplane to fly. Very predictable and easy single engine ops. Plenty of power, we can get to FL430-450 at almost any weight and if not initially after an hour or so with some fuel burned off. It won't go to FL510 (I've gotten to FL50.8 once) like Bombardier claims, but FL470 and below is very realistic. It'll do 450KTAS 95% of the time, and if its a little warm 460-465KTAS.

I'm sure one of the other guys here that fly them charter or for one of the larger operators can offer some more of their insight if your boss decides to lean towards a 45.

Edit: just saw BEEF SUPREME beat me to it.

 

[MikeOH58]

It is fairly high he hasn't given us a specific number other than he was worried about getting an older aircraft that could become a maintenance nightmare. He has pretty good numbers from other operators and friends in the area so he is fully aware of what this will cost him.

You cannot do your job without knowing an operating budget. If he is only willing to spend approximately 4 million on acquiring a jet who's mission sounds like it's sure out of the 4 million range, he is going to be in for a very rude awakening when he puts that back into the airplane after a couple years. Part 91 management is awesome, but if you don't know what you are doing you could turn this into a financial disaster and find yourself unemployed pretty quickly. If you haven't done this before you should definitely be speaking with someone who has.

Check out aircraftcostcalculator. Owner belongs to one of the other forums and is very approachable in sending out samples for a couple types.

Goodluck!

 

[MikeOH58]

The jet will be used for the longer distance stuff from the Pacific Northwest to the East coast area. It is usually 4 to 6 pax with about 30lbs of bags each.

Have you considered looking into an older CJ3? You can likely pick one up for around 4 million. Most of the time it will be a one stop airplane and your operating cost are going to be far less then just about anything comparable. Let me know if you need specific information on the type.

 

[hook_dupin]

I don't think there's a jet there that fits your requirements exactly:

$4M fly away cost
2400 NM range
Seats 6 pax + bags
Low operating/MX costs

Before you look at specific types, you should rank-order those requirements. Bending on range and accepting a fuel stop will give you a very different answer than bending on expected revolving costs.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Yeah the budget isn't set in stone. We are trying to figure out if there is anything that would work better for us in this range.

Well. I don't have any other ideas. In terms of a true coast to coast aircraft the CE750 is hard to beat. A MX hog, with lots of quirks and bad habits but it does the job day in and day out. For your mission profile it really is the perfect airplane.

I'd look at buying a good one. Not the cheapest. It would give me little comfort to fly around at FL450+ at mach .88 and know I was rollin' in the "cheapest" X.

 

[mikecweb]

601-3R will do it. Budget about 300k in mx and fixed costs.

 

[MikeOH58]

601-3R will do it. Budget about 300k in mx and fixed costs.

How many hours a year? My annual budget on a new CJ3 flying 350 hours per year is over half a mil. I can't imagine a super midsize being that significantly less???

 

[mikecweb]

150 hours a year. Variable costs: conservative 3,000 per hour depending on the mission.
That doesn't include any for the note on the airplane I should add.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Good to know. I'll also give him the Falcon 50 idea.

 

[MikeOH58]

150 hours a year. Variable costs: conservative 3,000 per hour depending on the mission.
That doesn't include any for the note on the airplane I should add.

What about the fixed costs? Pilot salary, Hangar, insurance etc...Those three alone easily add another $200k bare minimum.

I just re-read your posting. Are you saying $3,000/hour is doc/toc?

 

[mikecweb]

What about the fixed costs? Pilot salary, Hangar, insurance etc...Those three alone easily add another $200k bare minimum.

I just re-read your posting. Are you saying $3,000/hour is doc/toc?

3,000 for Variable per hour costs.
300,000 for mx - not including pilot salaries, hangar, or insurance due to owners being all over the place on that subject.
He said he was adding the airplane: Pilot Salary and Hangar costs is pretty hard to nail down as it's very company specific. Will they add three pilots or just keep the two they got? Do they already own a hangar that will accomodate or do they lease hangar space and are charged by airplane type.
If you want total costs per year for 150 hours I'd put it in the 750k-800k range.

*ROUGH estimates based on flight departments I've managed. YMMV.

 

[mikecweb]

Annnnnd you got Charter companies charging 4000-4500 per hour for 601s. Hard to convince owners to have their own plane these days.

 

[planesenses]

Pending operational costs, if those weren't a concern...consider some of the larger aircraft? You were talking about the G150 and the LJ45; why not look at the LJ60 or the LJ45XR? If you're price point is $4M, define your operational costs. You're in a sector that's difficult at best, you either get a cheap jet that doesn't meet your range/pax requirements or you get an expensive jet that meets the criteria, but costs much more to operate. 4-6 people across the country is difficult to do inexpensively. There are a few listed Citation X's that are online, but they start at 4.8...if your boss is a good negotiator...let him loose, otherwise there is the Citation Ultra which has a decent range, cabin, etc...but I believe the Lear is slightly better on the performance side.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Not being versed on these "big jets", what's the downside to the Citation III/VII? I mean other than it being old and out of fashion, which of course just makes me like it more.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Not being versed on these "big jets", what's the downside to the Citation III/VII? I mean other than it being old and out of fashion, which of course just makes me like it more.

A local power company ownes a VII. They seem to get their use out of it but I haven't heard any pros or cons of it.

 

[SoonerAv8r]

It is fairly high he hasn't given us a specific number other than he was worried about getting an older aircraft that could become a maintenance nightmare. He has pretty good numbers from other operators and friends in the area so he is fully aware of what this will cost him.

Lear 60

 

[PositionAndHold]

Pending operational costs, if those weren't a concern...consider some of the larger aircraft? You were talking about the G150 and the LJ45; why not look at the LJ60 or the LJ45XR? If you're price point is $4M, define your operational costs. You're in a sector that's difficult at best, you either get a cheap jet that doesn't meet your range/pax requirements or you get an expensive jet that meets the criteria, but costs much more to operate. 4-6 people across the country is difficult to do inexpensively. There are a few listed Citation X's that are online, but they start at 4.8...if your boss is a good negotiator...let him loose, otherwise there is the Citation Ultra which has a decent range, cabin, etc...but I believe the Lear is slightly better on the performance side.

A straight LR45 and a LR45XR are pretty much the same airplane. In fact if you bought an original 45 you can make all the changes to make your 45 an XR. It's some optional service bulletins/AD's and an engine software change that allows for higher temp ranges. I forgot the exact specifics, it's been a while since I flew a straight 45. The 40XR and the 45XR are still the same type but the 40XR is physically shorter by a row of seats (6 vs 8) and a little less fuel. Unless you're Walmart then you get full tanks and some other mods. (So I've heard any way)

Not sure if that's what you were thinking of. If not, just ignore me.

 

[ryan1234]

The company is rapidly expanding and our King Air isn't fulfilling all of our needs. We will probably keep the King Air because we do go into back country and small airports. The jet will be used for the longer distance stuff from the Pacific Northwest to the East coast area. It is usually 4 to 6 pax with about 30lbs of bags each. Here is what the boss has put in front of us to figure out.

He is really into the Lear 45 but the problem is I think we would really be stretching range when we head back to the West.

He also likes the idea of picking up an older Challenger that is cheap but he is worried about maintenance because of cost and that we only have one mechanic on staff.

He doesn't like the G150 because his friends dropped it because they felt it had excessive fuel burn.

What other options that we could be overlooking?

Budget is in the 4 million range.

G150 is definitely not a bad airplane. Fuel burn will probably be up there regardless. We could do Las Vegas to the North East in the CE650 at about 1600lbs/hr carrying 8 people and bags.

If you can PM CK ... he is really smart about all of this business jet acquisition/operating/management/flying etc stuff.