Blue Angels crash in Nashville

<KINDA RANT>

Just saw this on a Facebook post:

"The man in the picture below had a decision to make. Punch out and save his own life or stay with the plane and avoid houses and save several lives at the cost of his."

Can we please stop saying this when guys crash and die in airplanes?

I know we all want to believe that pilots acted bravely and heroically in their last moments prior to death. I'm sure they did, but we don't need to attribute these kinds of false-heroic acts to make that bravery and heroism true.

Unfortunately, no, that probably isn't the decision this pilot had to make -- it likely didn't cross his mind at all. In reality, someone in a situation in an aircraft so dire that they died when it impacted the dirt simply doesn't have the ability to "avoid houses" or "save innocent lives". Pilots in these situations usually don't have that amount of control over the airplane to even be capable enough to make such a decision, and even if they did, they were more likely focused on simply trying to save the aircraft in those moments. More than likely the pilot had a last-second realization that he wasn't going to be able to save himself the instant or two before he impacted the dirt, but until that point -- if they were conscious -- they were 100% focused on flying the airplane. That's what pilots do; fly the airplane...and sometimes to their own fatal detriment.

What does it say about the pilots whose crashed airplanes plowed into a house or a shopping mall or an airshow crowd? Were they cowards who were just trying to save themselves and didn't care where their flaming wreckage ended up?

No, of course it doesn't mean that. That's, however, what is implied when we say things like this. It isn't fair to either pilot, nor to the families and friends those pilots leave behind after their deaths.

None of this discussion -- either way -- takes away from these pilots' character or competence. It doesn't diminish these pilots memories in any way -- their memory is all ready magnificent without these faux-heroic attributions. In the case of Capt Kuss, it is fortunate that the aircraft didn't impact any homes, and nobody on the ground was injured...but that was chance, not a last-ditch heroic life-sacrificing act.

<RANT OFF>
 
<KINDA RANT>

Just saw this on a Facebook post:

"The man in the picture below had a decision to make. Punch out and save his own life or stay with the plane and avoid houses and save several lives at the cost of his."

Can we please stop saying this when guys crash and die in airplanes?



None of this discussion -- either way -- takes away from these pilots' character or competence. It doesn't diminish these pilots memories in any way -- their memory is all ready magnificent without these faux-heroic attributions. In the case of Capt Kuss, it is fortunate that the aircraft didn't impact any homes, and nobody on the ground was injured...but that was chance, not a last-ditch heroic life-sacrificing act.

<RANT OFF>

Read something similar on Facebook. I'm thinking "it's a day later, how do you even know this? The Navy probably doesn't even know this."

In this day and age, a lot of people have a tendency to want to sensationalize or find the silver lining in everything, it makes them feel better.
 
Read something similar on Facebook. I'm thinking "it's a day later, how do you even know this? The Navy probably doesn't even know this."

In this day and age, a lot of people have a tendency to want to sensationalize or find the silver lining in everything, it makes them feel better.

But it makes the important people in the equation feel worse like friends and family. I experienced this personally ten years ago. Those comments never go away with the magic of Google. My family and the families of the others killed never saw a final report from the Navy. We weren't even allowed to, so I am not sure about the claims that a report exists now for this accident although it had witnesses and video which forces their hand.

Just think when you start to speculate that one day, if they have young children at the time of the accident, when they grow up, they are bound to search for it. Would you like them to see what they will find? I wish things would change, but they likely won't.
 
But it makes the important people in the equation feel worse like friends and family. I experienced this personally ten years ago. Those comments never go away with the magic of Google. My family and the families of the others killed never saw a final report from the Navy. We weren't even allowed to, so I am not sure about the claims that a report exists now for this accident although it had witnesses and video which forces their hand.

Just think when you start to speculate that one day, if they have young children at the time of the accident, when they grow up, they are bound to search for it. Would you like them to see what they will find? I wish things would change, but they likely won't.
Wow, I can't believe they don't even let the families see the report. Hopefully they at least give them like a briefing or something. It seems kind of odd that the Air Force publishes theirs while the Navy doesn't. I'd look into if it's something you can request under FOIA. If you do a google search for JAG Manual Investigations, you will find a few on the JAG website. Not sure why those are public and not others.
The S.C. One however is on the bottom of the Wikipedia page for the crash under JAG manual basic investigative report.
 
Wow, I can't believe they don't even let the families see the report. Hopefully they at least give them like a briefing or something. It seems kind of odd that the Air Force publishes theirs while the Navy doesn't. I'd look into if it's something you can request under FOIA. If you do a google search for JAG Manual Investigations, you will find a few on the JAG website. Not sure why those are public and not others.
The S.C. One however is on the bottom of the Wikipedia page for the crash under JAG manual basic investigative report.

Yes, we had briefings, but there were so many different issues, screw ups really with the investigation, recovery and the remains that it was an example of how to something terribly wrong. Even if I was able to get the report, I don't know how much I would believe.
 
Yes, we had briefings, but there were so many different issues, screw ups really with the investigation, recovery and the remains that it was an example of how to something terribly wrong. Even if I was able to get the report, I don't know how much I would believe.
:( Shouldn't be that way.
 
It seems kind of odd that the Air Force publishes theirs while the Navy doesn't.

Please remember this: there isn't one "report".

In the USAF, there are two, separate investigations that yield two, separate reports.

The first investigation is the Safety Report. That report is for internal USAF use only. Its purpose is to allow the AF to understand what happened in a non-attribution way, such that the system can make changes in the name of safety. The report cannot be used for any disciplinary purposes, and is not releasable to the public. It is ONLY viewable to people with a need to know inside the organization.

The second investigation is the Accident Report. This report is the official publicly-releasable document, and can be used for disciplinary purposes as well as legal action.

Sometimes there is only one report (the safety report) produced, due to the nature of the incident/accident.

The point of this is, not all reports are legally releasable to the public -- even to family of those involved. I once submitted a statement to a safety investigation that I later wanted to obtain a copy of, but I was not legally allowed to have a copy of my own statement due to those legal protections of the process and the information.
 
Just think when you start to speculate that one day, if they have young children at the time of the accident, when they grow up, they are bound to search for it. Would you like them to see what they will find?

Truth is truth, fact is fact.

I would want my children to know the facts, even if it didn't paint me in an especially positive light. Nothing is served by pretending, except the feels.
 
Please remember this: there isn't one "report".

In the USAF, there are two, separate investigations that yield two, separate reports.

The first investigation is the Safety Report. That report is for internal USAF use only. Its purpose is to allow the AF to understand what happened in a non-attribution way, such that the system can make changes in the name of safety. The report cannot be used for any disciplinary purposes, and is not releasable to the public. It is ONLY viewable to people with a need to know inside the organization.

The second investigation is the Accident Report. This report is the official publicly-releasable document, and can be used for disciplinary purposes as well as legal action.

Sometimes there is only one report (the safety report) produced, due to the nature of the incident/accident.

The point of this is, not all reports are legally releasable to the public -- even to family of those involved. I once submitted a statement to a safety investigation that I later wanted to obtain a copy of, but I was not legally allowed to have a copy of my own statement due to those legal protections of the process and the information.
Gotcha. So the question is, does the Navy have accident reports? I mean even the Air Force accident reports, while probably not as detailed as the safety report, have a lot of information that the family might like to know.

I think something should be made public, especially when you have an opinion written like that one in the F-22 crash a few years ago.
 
Wow, I can't believe they don't even let the families see the report. Hopefully they at least give them like a briefing or something. It seems kind of odd that the Air Force publishes theirs while the Navy doesn't. I'd look into if it's something you can request under FOIA. If you do a google search for JAG Manual Investigations, you will find a few on the JAG website. Not sure why those are public and not others.
The S.C. One however is on the bottom of the Wikipedia page for the crash under JAG manual basic investigative report.

The primary goals of these investigations are to find out what happened and attempt to prevent it from happening again. Satisfying the curiosity of the public is a lesser priority.

The military isn't trying hide anything. At the end of the day, the public gets a pretty good explanation of what happened. What they don't get is the raw material, the testimony of dozens that might not be as enthusiastic or forthcoming if their testimony was to be made public. Privacy supports the integrity of investigations, not diminish it.

As far as families of the deceased go, that's a very difficult audience to satisfy. They will always want more. A friend of mine that lost his father in an EA-6B crash was able to obtain almost all of the records related to his father's accident. That wasn't enough. He then spent years interviewing his father's peers, eventually publishing his story in a book titled, The Magical Stranger. He broke down all the barriers and that wasn't enough, he still had questions. It is unfortunate that the system is better at preparing for war than preparing to deal with families of the lost.
 
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Truth is truth, fact is fact.

I would want my children to know the facts, even if it didn't paint me in an especially positive light. Nothing is served by pretending, except the feels.

I am talking about the speculation, the if I was flying that plane, etc. NOT the facts. The coulda, woulda, shoulda. I hope that they would get access to the facts, but that isn't always an option.
 
The military isn't trying hide anything.
Well that's not always true. I mean that F-22 report in the 2010 crash looked like they were trying to hide something. Ultimately though, because the report was public, the Air Force was pressured into a second look and the pilot was vindicated. Could be an argument why some type of report should be public, obviously with none of the classified stuff.
 
Well that's not always true. I mean that F-22 report in the 2010 crash looked like they were trying to hide something. Ultimately though, because the report was public, the Air Force was pressured into a second look and the pilot was vindicated.

Well, sorta. The facts in the safety report did not change.

I'm only familiar with one specific instance in which a report was essentially falsified because AF leadership did not like the facts, and that's with the Thunderbirds crash in the T-38s up at Indian Springs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Thunderbirds_Indian_Springs_Diamond_Crash
 
So regarding the TN crash, has anyone seen anything accurate as far as how this crash happened? I've seen reports saying witnesses said he stalled at the top of a loop and did not recover, and I've seen reports saying witnesses said his engines quit right after takeoff at low level, like maybe around where #6 pulls to vertical on takeoff.

Anyone have a good idea of what actually occurred?
 
So regarding the TN crash, has anyone seen anything accurate as far as how this crash happened? I've seen reports saying witnesses said he stalled at the top of a loop and did not recover, and I've seen reports saying witnesses said his engines quit right after takeoff at low level, like maybe around where #6 pulls to vertical on takeoff.

Anyone have a good idea of what actually occurred?

The amateur video that is posted, which does not show the impact itself because the camera pans away a few seconds before, seems to show #6 topping some kind of vertical maneuver in the seconds prior to the impact.
 
Gotcha. So the question is, does the Navy have accident reports? I mean even the Air Force accident reports, while probably not as detailed as the safety report, have a lot of information that the family might like to know.

I think something should be made public, especially when you have an opinion written like that one in the F-22 crash a few years ago.

In our speak, SIR is the "safety report", i.e. the non-releasable one. Just like was previously mentioned, the JAGMAN investigation is the legal report, and is releasable. Not all mishaps have a JAGMAN conducted however. Most of the time, if both reports are made, they are pretty much mirror images of one another, with maybe a few less important details omitted from the JAG.
 
The amateur video that is posted, which does not show the impact itself because the camera pans away a few seconds before, seems to show #6 topping some kind of vertical maneuver in the seconds prior to the impact.

If the video you are talking about is the one I saw, I thought what I saw was #5 recovering from his "dirty roll on takeoff", where #5 is slowly climbing out and turning left, as that aircraft's location and travel direction did not jive with the impact location I saw. #6 would be very high and behind/to the right of #5 depending on perspective while that left turn occurs. Makes me think the fireball low in the trees behind #5 and in front of the returning diamond is #6 after a low altitude failure and no options. Like if his engines failed when he did his abrupt pitchup, and he changed his AoA rapidly but did not really climb. I just can't get my knowledge of the solo takeoff routines and the flying lone jet position to match that fireball location after the camera pans back over. Will have to look at it again.

Edit: at 0:11, there is a high slow jet flying left, then the camera pans right 2-3 light poles to the diamond. At 0:17, the camera pans left 2-3 light poles, and the fireball is already big and seems behind the plane that was flying left. So maybe the impact was at 0:15/16. How did the slow high left flying plane go down and back to the right so far in 3-4 seconds? Makes me think 6 either never climbed or came straight down from high up out of camera view.



Like I said, still not sure which story is accurate but I think this vid shows a fireball but not 6's flight path.

RIP Captain Kuss in any case.
 
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. Most of the time, if both reports are made, they are pretty much mirror images of one another, with maybe a few less important details omitted from the JAG.

And sometimes, at least on the AF side with the two different investigtations, the same accident can have two different conclusions in the two separate investigations. Go figure.
 
Do the Blues tape their practices? Just wondering the have internal footage of the crash.


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