Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Is there no way to use the time at all?
Block refund from flight school
- Thread starter Flyinhigh728
- Start date
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
Add TYJ Global to that list. I am out 20K. I even had a contract and then 2 judgments against the company owners and still haven't seen a dime back.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...-donations-from-disabled-vets-and-paraplegics
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/tyj-global-just-latest-example-of-super-replicas-of-fl-1575274591
OP I recommend you do not go and talk with the owner. But if you do make sure to do it "WITH" a witness who is unrelated to you, no girl/boy friends, etc.
You're best bet is to find out the total amount you can recover in small claims court. If it isn't more than the total amount owed go ahead and file suit. Nothing gets someone responding than a legal suit. You can always nonsuit (it means cancel) the case once you file if the debtor pays you back.
If you win a judgement for the amount then you can seize bank accounts and company equipment, even get the sheriff to force a sale of aircraft to pay your judgement.
Avgirl
Well-Known Member
Is that a bit different than this situation? They didn't deliver services to you that you paid for vs the OP who paid for services but no longer wants them.
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killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Again, this issue is why it's a good idea to get things in writing.
If the owner is willing to let you fly/train at the agreed-upon price, then I still say that your circumstances are not his problem. You might have a problem with that morally, but I can't really see anything unethical there strictly on the basis of what you're talking about.
If it were me, I'd really try and get the training and hours unless you are 100% certain that you either a) will never be able to use them or b) have changed your mind about flying.
By the way - I disagree that this says the owner is insolvent. Being unwilling to refund the money is not the same as being unable. It may be a really poor networking/marketing decision, but that's an entirely different matter. None of us has any insight into this school's accounting.
OP - this does suck for you and I'm really sorry you're in a really uncomfortable position. Let us know how it all shakes out.
If the owner is willing to let you fly/train at the agreed-upon price, then I still say that your circumstances are not his problem. You might have a problem with that morally, but I can't really see anything unethical there strictly on the basis of what you're talking about.
If it were me, I'd really try and get the training and hours unless you are 100% certain that you either a) will never be able to use them or b) have changed your mind about flying.
By the way - I disagree that this says the owner is insolvent. Being unwilling to refund the money is not the same as being unable. It may be a really poor networking/marketing decision, but that's an entirely different matter. None of us has any insight into this school's accounting.
OP - this does suck for you and I'm really sorry you're in a really uncomfortable position. Let us know how it all shakes out.
Flyinhigh728
Well-Known Member
Thank you! I have been looking into all of my options. Believe me, this is the last thing I wanted to do, but things happen in life when it's least expected. I will certainly let you all know how it works out.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
If you can use the money for others you could see about providing discovery flights for underprivileged kids and then write it off as a donation. You won't see the money directly but would make a difference for some kids.
Yes, bring a bag of candy and advertise at Junior high schools. Offer rides to the airport in a van.
Rudabega
Well-Known Member
Hold up now, this need further examination. Exactly what kind of candy are you offering and how much? ;-)
ahsmatt7
Well-Known Member
Let's get this straight. The OP paid upfront for flight time.
Based off accounting 1 back in college...(basic stuff here so I'm not a CPA or anything) until his money gets billed from his account, the money he has on account is not the flight schools and is still his....acctccounts receivable if I'm correct.
The flight school doesn't have the option to not refund him unless they both signed a money handling agreement as stated before.
If they didn't, they need to give him his money back. As far as I'm concerned, he never used the remaining money on his acct. Therefore, he has access to his money. It's just a fancy savings account.
Until he has used the flight time, he has access to his money.
He paid for flight time. Not access to airplanes. Just flight time. If he didn't get that flight time, he deserves a refund.
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Based off accounting 1 back in college...(basic stuff here so I'm not a CPA or anything) until his money gets billed from his account, the money he has on account is not the flight schools and is still his....acctccounts receivable if I'm correct.
The flight school doesn't have the option to not refund him unless they both signed a money handling agreement as stated before.
If they didn't, they need to give him his money back. As far as I'm concerned, he never used the remaining money on his acct. Therefore, he has access to his money. It's just a fancy savings account.
Until he has used the flight time, he has access to his money.
He paid for flight time. Not access to airplanes. Just flight time. If he didn't get that flight time, he deserves a refund.
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Avgirl
Well-Known Member
I am thinking you may have been sleeping in that Accounting class.
This isn't an automatic monthly payment withdrawal transaction that gets you a discount based on the recurring payment being set up. This is a flat fee for a specific amount of time, and in addition one without any type of contract. A discount was extended up front for what costs more if purchased individually. Therefore, your savings account theory is absolutely incorrect. This is no different than a Gift Card. I haven't ever gotten a cash refund on a Gift Card, have you? It is a lesson to never pay for anything up front unless you absolutely intend to use it. Yes, things happen in life that are unexpected, but at the end of the day, CYA. Cover your ass.
"It all depends"
ahsmatt7
Well-Known Member
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Circumstances specific to this situation.
FlyingAccountant
Well-Known Member
This is more business law than accounting theory.
The question is, did he sign a contract stating that there are no refunds once the money has been put down? That's the crux of the issue.
If you can't get relief through negotiating with him and the contract/agreement backs you, I'd drag him into small claims. You could also consult a lawyer and see if a strongly worded letter with his letterhead on it will get you anywhere.
(And if anyone cares, the flight school owner should be carrying this as unearned revenue on his books, which would be a liability for him.)
ahsmatt7
Well-Known Member
I hope he didn't sign anything.
Unearned revenue....that's the main term I was looking for. Reminds me of my college days.
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Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
A contract could be structured as you describe but there is nothing from the OP to suggest it has.
It doesn't sound like there is a written contract at all.
It is unfortunate that the OP failed to protect himself but the law appears to be on the side of the seller. Refunds in business are exceptional, that's what contracts are for. Likewise, refunds required by statute are pretty rare and most commonly of the "buyer's remorse" type, allowing unilateral breaking of contracts (usually installment loans) by the buyer prior to delivery of consideration (product) for a short period of time. Most of these laws give the buyer 24-72 hours to break a contract. This is why car dealers want buyers to leave the lot with a car. If the loan falls through, the car comes back. Otherwise, no refund option.
I'm surprised that more folks haven't considered this situation from the seller's point of view.
It sounds like the seller is perfectly willing to live up to his end of the bargain. Let's not draw any legal conclusions from the common refund practices of national retailers. In the case of the big box stores, most require their vendors to accept any return for any reason. The big box store isn't out a dime. These policies have bankrupted vendors.
For a few years, I managed the business side of my father's 182. When a premature need for an overhaul put us uncomfortably in the red, I sold some block hours.
It was a win-win situation. Buyers got some cheap hours and we were out of the red quickly. For the most part, we had a no refund policy. If I could deliver an airworthy aircraft, we met our responsibility. We had a contract and everybody knew where they stood. In our case, we used the block hour sale to pay off a portion of a loan (line of credit) we used for the overhaul. That was the motivation for the block hour sale. We weren't insolvent, we were conservative. We wanted to pay down our line of credit in case we needed an expensive repair. After all, we had obligations to two other guys that bought time.
Giving one guy a refund would have compromised our ability to deliver what we were contracted to provide to two other guys. We even rented another plane when ours was down. That's not insolvency, that's responsibility. What if we gave two out of the three guys refunds (not required by contract) and couldn't deliver an airworthy plane to the third as a result of our generosity.
Beyond that, the value or the ability to sell (or resell) hours might change over time. An individual or school might sell block hours in the summer. What if everybody wanted a refund to buy Christmas presents for their family. The seller might not have another opportunity to sell that block again until spring, demand might be significantly reduced during the winter months.
The inability or unwillingness for a seller to provide a refund doesn't reflect negatively on the seller in my mind.
The OP doesn't have a chance in court unless he can prove that there was a promise (verbal or written) of a refund option.
The fact that a business might show a liability on the books until goods or services are delivered in no way suggests that a refund is due. The seller could carry it forever or close his books at the end of the year. This is irrelevant when it comes to the law.
Profit = revenue - costs. There is nothing in GAAP that says that costs can't be zero.
One thing that's throwing people off is their understanding of a contact and a belief that the buyer must receive or consume the consideration in question.
A contract, even a verbal contract, consists of (1) an offer, (2) acceptance of the offer, and a (3) valid consideration.
The acceptance of an offer might include situations in which the seller may not have to deliver all or part of the consideration. In this case, there's an offer, acceptance, and valid consideration and the buyer is REFUSING to accept the consideration despite the willingness to deliver the consideration, as agreed.
I would put on my begging hat. Playing lawyer without talking to a lawyer is a bad idea and yield zero from a seller that might be open to some form of compromise.
I'm not a lawyer, you might want to speak with one.
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njboeingfan
Well-Known Member
Many states have a consumer fraud act where a consumer was defrauded out of money/services the claimant is entitled to triple damages. Best of all the judgment/award is not discharged in bankruptcy (state depending). I used this often contractors would fail to perform or steal money from homeowners. Defiantly speak to a lawyer in your area.
ahsmatt7
Well-Known Member
I ended up with a solid 80 in the class. That leaves a ton of room for improvement. I'll give you that. However, I still completely disagree with you on every other post you have made in this thread.I am thinking you may have been sleeping in that Accounting class.
There is no reason why someone who paid for flight time and never got it isn't entitled to a refund.
I worked from a flight school who did this to students. I told all mine to make a run at the bank. They all did. With outstanding results.
Even on the fact that the OP had medical issues and that's the reason that kept him from from flying, the owner shouldnt hold his money just because he can. It's a scumbag way of doing business.
The fact that some people stand up for the flight school is very very disconcerting.
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Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Of the many states you mention, which one would provide a remedy in this case?
All commerce would break down and the economy would falter if refunds were the rule, not the exception.
Think about the cash reserves that would be required for this to be the case. Think of the impact on consumer prices if this was to be common and implied.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
So you are proud of trying to destroy somebody's business because they don't give refunds? That makes you a prick, not a hero if the business is delivering according to their contractural obligations.
Why is it disconcerting that folks can see things from the perspective of the business owner?
Explain exactly how this worked at your school. If a student had access to their accounts, as evidenced by their ability to withdraw their money or close their accounts, and school was debiting the account as they burned hours and instruction, what was happening?
We're they overcharging for services rendered or charging for services that weren't rendered? How did they not offer refunds if they were charging as they went and students had control of funds?
Did the school just have a credit card or ACH info on file? How were they guilty of not offering refunds? Was there a deposit? Did they violate a contract?
Did they adhere to a contract that you though was unfair?
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