Block refund from flight school

ahsmatt7 said:
I ended up with a solid 80 in the class. That leaves a ton of room for improvement. I'll give you that. However, I still completely disagree with you on every other post you have made in this thread.

There is no reason why someone who paid for flight time and never got it isn't entitled to a refund.

I worked from a flight school who did this to students. I told all mine to make a run at the bank. They all did. With outstanding results.

Even on the fact that the OP had medical issues and that's the reason that kept him from from flying, the owner shouldnt hold his money just because he can. It's a scumbag way of doing business.

The fact that some people stand up for the flight school is very very disconcerting.

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That's great that you did so well in the class It isn't an easy subject at all, nor is Business Law. I am not sure you read all the posts by the OP. But, if he had lost out on flight time beause the school went under or refused to honor their arrangement, then I would agree. But, what you don't seem to understand is that the flight school didn't cancel on him, he doesn't want to fly for whatever reason which is completely different, so HE changed his mind. I would be infuriated if I paid for something and it didn't get delivered. But, if I paid for something and then changed my mind, I don't have anyone to be angry at other than myself. The terms of getting the discount were for paying up front. If you start something, finish it. That is some of the motivation for continuing for a lot of people. Myself included. Losing money is huge motivation. I have buyers remorse all the time, believe me! But, not in cases like this. If I paid for flight time and changed my mind about being a pilot, and there wasn't a refund policy, I would still finish. I don't waste money. Ever. I never pay for anything upfront without something written and a full understanding of the terms. The best this guy can do is talk to owner and explain the circumstances. It never hurts to ask and you will find that a lot of business owners are understanding and may meet in the middle. But, threatening to ruin a reputation, get an attorney and not take responsibility for a bad judgement call, is just bad all around.

The fact that everyone is quick to throw the business owner under the bus without knowing the facts is disconcerting. I certainly hope you don't threaten to sue when McDonald's doesn't fill up your fry box to your standards. ;)
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Of the many states you mention, which one would provide a remedy in this case?

All commerce would break down and the economy would falter if refunds were the rule, not the exception.

Think about the cash reserves that would be required for this to be the case. Think of the impact on consumer prices if this was to be common and implied.
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If I understand your question correctly, the state does not compensate the party, it is just part of the award. It is usually a tough violation to prove, and I was merely mentioning a route of the OP had money legitimately stolen, not passing judgment on the validity of his claim.
 
njboeingfan said:
If I understand your question correctly, the state does not compensate the party, it is just part of the award. It is usually a tough violation to prove, and I was merely mentioning a route of the OP had money legitimately stolen, not passing judgment on the validity of his claim.
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No, I was talking about the amount of money the private sector would have to keep on hand if full refunds were the rule, not the exception.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
So you are proud of trying to destroy somebody's business because they don't give refunds? That makes you a prick, not a hero if the business is delivering according to their contractural obligations.

Why is it disconcerting that folks can see things from the perspective of the business owner?

Explain exactly how this worked at your school. If a student had access to their accounts, as evidenced by their ability to withdraw their money or close their accounts, and school was debiting the account as they burned hours and instruction, what was happening?

We're they overcharging for services rendered or charging for services that weren't rendered? How did they not offer refunds if they were charging as they went and students had control of funds?

Did the school just have a credit card or ACH info on file? How were they guilty of not offering refunds? Was there a deposit? Did they violate a contract?

Did they adhere to a contract that you though was unfair?
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Yeah I'm proud of it! I'm proud of telling three of my students to take their money out.

You have no idea what was happening at my school at the time. I'll give you a taste though.

First off, there was never any written contract that students had to sign regarding money, transactions and refunds.

40 to 50 Vietnamese students paying upwards to 40 grand for a one yr program, yet my weekend warrior students couldn't find an air worthy airplane. Then, the school couldn't afford fuel or insurance for the airplanes. The school couldn't pay rent or instructors.

I told my three weekend Warrior students that if they can, they need to get their money back. I told them to pay for each flight seperately.

I didn't ruin any business. It turns out that the students who withdrew their funds, ended up paying the exact amount that they had taken back from the flight school when they paid for each flight separately.

The way my school worked was you could put a lump sum of.money on file. When you flew, the school would bill from said acct. Once the student was out of money, they would be charged accordingly or the student had the option of putting more money into the acct.

I don't see any problem with someone asking for their money back. It's their money. Until the flight school bills the student, it's not the flight schools.

How could it be?

I feel that a business shouldn't be running on revenue they haven't made yet. If a school is sitting on a ton of cash from accts of this nature, find a way for the students to fly more so you can bill them and make more revenue.

Have the student sign a contract. Cover both parties. Don't be an butt head and make up rules as you go.

At the end of the day, i don't care one bit about businesses who take advantage of customers.

The customer isn't always right. I knkw that. However, if the company hasn't done their due diligence to protect themselves, that sounds like a personal problem. Same goes for the customer.



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Avgirl said:
How many things do we pay large sums of money upfront for without a written contract? The very reason I don't do that is because of this example by the OP. Listen to a Clark Howard show once because wonderful Spotify didn't exist and you are driving in the middle of nowhere, and try not to learn from the crazies that call in. :)
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Clark Howard is financial advice for idiots who shouldn't have money in the first place.
 
ahsmatt7 said:
On what?

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On what the agreement was. And even then, how long the owner wants to drag it out and how much money the poster wants f spend to get his money back.
 
ahsmatt7 said:
Yeah I'm proud of it! I'm proud of telling three of my students to take their money out.

You have no idea what was happening at my school at the time. I'll give you a taste though.

First off, there was never any written contract that students had to sign regarding money, transactions and refunds.

40 to 50 Vietnamese students paying upwards to 40 grand for a one yr program, yet my weekend warrior students couldn't find an air worthy airplane. Then, the school couldn't afford fuel or insurance for the airplanes. The school couldn't pay rent or instructors.

I told my three weekend Warrior students that if they can, they need to get their money back. I told them to pay for each flight seperately.

I didn't ruin any business. It turns out that the students who withdrew their funds, ended up paying the exact amount that they had taken back from the flight school when they paid for each flight separately.

The way my school worked was you could put a lump sum of.money on file. When you flew, the school would bill from said acct. Once the student was out of money, they would be charged accordingly or the student had the option of putting more money into the acct.

I don't see any problem with someone asking for their money back. It's their money. Until the flight school bills the student, it's not the flight schools.

How could it be?

I feel that a business shouldn't be running on revenue they haven't made yet. If a school is sitting on a ton of cash from accts of this nature, find a way for the students to fly more so you can bill them and make more revenue.

Have the student sign a contract. Cover both parties. Don't be an butt head and make up rules as you go.

At the end of the day, i don't care one bit about businesses who take advantage of customers.

The customer isn't always right. I knkw that. However, if the company hasn't done their due diligence to protect themselves, that sounds like a personal problem. Same goes for the customer.



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You are describing a situation where the buyers weren't getting what they paid for. That's a completely different scenario than that posed by the OP.

Your understanding of the law and corporate accounting are perverse to say the least.

You are under the impression that money paid to a seller still belongs to the buyer. That is not correct from a legal or accounting standpoint.

One of the biggest challenges a small business faces is cash flow. Pre-payment is the most common method that small businesses use to improve their cash flow. No refund policies are very common in the big boy world of business.

A young man that I mentor understood that cash is king and opportunistically approached a reputable flying school in the middle of winter with cash and a one paragraph contract in hand.

He purchased, in cash, 100 hours of time in a 152 for $38/an hour, half what they normally charge. The seller needed the cash and the buyer was okay with a no refund policy. That's a win-win. Would anybody expect a seller that agreed to this deal to not immediately use the money? It sounds like you think the seller should put that money in escrow.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
You are describing a situation where the buyers weren't getting what they paid for. That's a completely different scenario than that posed by the OP.

Your understanding of the law and corporate accounting are perverse to say the least.

You are under the impression that money paid to a seller still belongs to the buyer. That is not correct from a legal or accounting standpoint.

One of the biggest challenges a small business faces is cash flow. Pre-payment is the most common method that small businesses use to improve their cash flow. No refund policies are very common in the big boy world of business.

A young man that I mentor understood that cash is king and opportunistically approached a reputable flying school in the middle of winter with cash and a one paragraph contract in hand.

He purchased, in cash, 100 hours of time in a 152 for $38/an hour, half what they normally charge. The seller needed the cash and the buyer was okay with a no refund policy. That's a win-win. Would anybody expect a seller that agreed to this deal to not immediately use the money? It sounds like you think the seller should put that money in escrow.
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To your 38 an hr scenario. I wouldn't expect the seller to hold onto the money because of the contract that was between the two.

The OP said he never signed anything. So yes, he should get his money back. The school didn't cover their butt. Too bad for them.

He paid for flight time. He never got said flight time. Even though he didn't get that flight time based off his own decisions, he still never got the flight time he paid for.

I don't need a masters degree in accounting and finance to understand thst the school is trying to pull a fast one.

Small business or not, someone's cash flow issues aren't and will never be a customer's problem. If someone pays money for an item or service and said service or item wasn't seen to completion, the buyer has the right to request a refund. If the seller wants to protect his assets and cash, then write up a contract with specific no refund clauses.



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ahsmatt7 said:
To your 38 an hr scenario. I wouldn't expect the seller to hold onto the money because of the contract that was between the two. The OP said he never signed anything. So yes, he should get his money back. The school didn't cover their butt. Too bad for them. He paid for flight time. He never got said flight time. Even though he didn't get that flight time based off his own decisions, he still never got the flight time he paid for. I don't need a masters degree in accounting and finance to understand thst the school is trying to pull a fast one. Small business or not, someone's cash flow issues aren't and will never be a customer's problem. If someone pays money for an item or service and said service or item wasn't seen to completion, the buyer has the right to request a refund. If the seller wants to protect his assets and cash, then write up a contract with specific no refund clauses. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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But the owner can just say you paid for flight time, we have time open on the schedule ...
 
ahsmatt7 said:
To your 38 an hr scenario. I wouldn't expect the seller to hold onto the money because of the contract that was between the two.

The OP said he never signed anything. So yes, he should get his money back. The school didn't cover their butt. Too bad for them.

He paid for flight time. He never got said flight time. Even though he didn't get that flight time based off his own decisions, he still never got the flight time he paid for.

I don't need a masters degree in accounting and finance to understand thst the school is trying to pull a fast one.

Small business or not, someone's cash flow issues aren't and will never be a customer's problem. If someone pays money for an item or service and said service or item wasn't seen to completion, the buyer has the right to request a refund. If the seller wants to protect his assets and cash, then write up a contract with specific no refund clauses.



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There was already an exchange of goods, one tangible, the other not. When you buy a block of hours, you have bought those hours. It is not the same as putting money on an account. You have bought, and paid for 10 hours in a certain airplane. You are then protected from price increases, variable rates etc. when you give money to a person, or small business you don't just get it back if you change your mind. Refund policy is up to the shop- otherwise, if they hold up their end of the bargain, then they have met their requirements.

When you don't use all the minutes in your cell plan, you don't get a refund.

When you don't drive every mile of a lease, you don't get money back at the end of the lease.
 
ahsmatt7 said:
To your 38 an hr scenario. I wouldn't expect the seller to hold onto the money because of the contract that was between the two.

The OP said he never signed anything. So yes, he should get his money back. The school didn't cover their butt. Too bad for them.

He paid for flight time. He never got said flight time. Even though he didn't get that flight time based off his own decisions, he still never got the flight time he paid for.

I don't need a masters degree in accounting and finance to understand thst the school is trying to pull a fast one.

Small business or not, someone's cash flow issues aren't and will never be a customer's problem. If someone pays money for an item or service and said service or item wasn't seen to completion, the buyer has the right to request a refund. If the seller wants to protect his assets and cash, then write up a contract with specific no refund clauses.



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You just don't get it. In the absence of a contract or exception by statute, refunds are the exception in practice and law.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Of the many states you mention, which one would provide a remedy in this case?

All commerce would break down and the economy would falter if refunds were the rule, not the exception.

Think about the cash reserves that would be required for this to be the case. Think of the impact on consumer prices if this was to be common and implied.
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This is not a private-party transaction where goods were exchanged for cash.
 
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