Best experience: 135 Freight or CFI

BrettInLJ

BrettInLJ

Well-Known Member
For those of you that have done both, do you think you learned more being a CFI, or flying for a 135 outfit? Or, is it that you learned just as much, but different things from each experience. If someone were to go straight to a 135 without instructing would they miss out on a lot of learning and experiences?
 
I think the best rounded pilot is the one that does both. I think being a CFI, at least for a little bit, helps you learn good CRM skills and how to teach. IFR 135 freight makes you into a damn good pilot and gives you a lot of real world experience.

If you went straight to 135, you wouldn't have had the experience of teaching. Every Capt in a multi crew environment is a teacher. Also, having some teaching ability could help you move up to check airman at your 135 job.

At the same time, I wouldn't turn down a 135 job because you want the experience as a CFI. A 135 job is generally a much better gig than instructing. Plus, you could still do some instructing on the side.
 
Yeah, as much as intsructing would be great, I've always imagined being single pilot in the soup in the middle of the night going into hodunk, WA in the middle of winter. I really must be insane, but I don't think I could turn that kind of job down. I've always fantasized and been drawn to that kind of flying. It seems more exciting than flying a 737 at 30,000 feet on autopilot. Now if only it paid the same and you could do it until you retire.
 
I am currently instructing and am trying to really decide between doing something like AirNet or sitting right seat in an RJ.. Not sure what to do..

The RJ seems like it might be a better idea - however - then I'd have to sit until I had 1000 PIC to move up - which could take 5 years.. If I got on with Airnet or the like, I would gain a significant amount of PIC over the SIC in ExpressJet, however, I won't get the 121 expirence or the turbine time - unless I got Caravan time at AirNet..

It's a tough choice - right now, my hours are making all the decisions for me though.
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The RJ seems like it might be a better idea - however - then I'd have to sit until I had 1000 PIC to move up - which could take 5 years.. If I got on with Airnet or the like, I would gain a significant amount of PIC over the SIC in ExpressJet, however, I won't get the 121 expirence or the turbine time - unless I got Caravan time at AirNet..


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Airnet has learjets....
 
I was a CFI for 7 months and 135 cargo pilot for 2.5 years and now and airline pilot. I would have to say I learned the most from flying freight. Nothing can replace experience and IMHO you will be a better airline pilot if you have flown cargo in the worst conditions imaginable. It is so much fun shooting an ILS to mins when you have been up for 24 hours and been flying for 12...Got to love part 91. They definatley, need to change some regs when it comes to 135 operators having the crew fly the plane home 91 when they time out.
 
Bandit,

Curious of your situation. In terms of 135, the criteria of you being on duty is not whether or not its 135 or 91, but whether its commercial or not.

As a freight guy, I can imagine finishing out part 91, but that fact is irrelevant. Its the 24 hour lookback (ie: where are your 9 hours of rest) the next day that counts?

But to add.... I AGREE. CFI-ing teaches you a lot and freight teaches you even more. I learned a lot doing both. Where I work, we usually hire CFI-I's as freight dogs.

Bluelake
 
135 can be a biatch at times. Our company ops specs allowed for 10 hours of 135 flight time. Yes, I did confirm that it was legal with our POI. We flew bandits which required two crew and no A/P. We would often fly 10 or nearly 10 hours with freight on board and be 1/2 way across the country. The company then would want the plane flown back to the base. Flying home we were part 91 therefore the duty/flight time limts no longer apply. Again the POI was in agreement with the company that this was legal. The only thing we had to do occassionaly was wait to drop time before starting the next trip. Believe me, time was managed down to the minute during the busy season. As soon as you could "legally" fly you back in the air for another long day. Most of the pilots there were flying 1000+ hours a year.

I sure love 121. It is so easy compared to 135.
 
Bandit,
That sounds crazy! in your opspecs, what was the required rest period? OpSpec/FAR usually its written such that at the ESTIMATED end of a duty period, you need to look back 24 hours and see that you had 8 or 9 hours of rest.

Bluelake
 
Ours is the same way. It's pretty common to on-demand operations (no scheduled runs), I think.

For rest, you have to be able to look back 24 hours at the planned completion time of the assignment and have had 10 consecutive hours of rest. The completion time of the assignment is when you drop off freight at it's destination.

For flight, you have to have flown no more than 8 hours by the time you drop freight.

The empty reposition leg home is not "commercial." It is not a revenue leg- the customer doesn't pay for it. This means that we can reposition home even if it means we'll exceed a 14 hour day, or 8 hours of flying.

Hopefully, when the new 135 re-write happens, it will change some of this, but for now it's perfectly legal, and a way of life when the on-demand business is busy.
 
yeah, but if you are getting paid for doing it then its commercial flight for the PILOT... thats the focus of the rule. i am still confused.
 
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yeah, but if you are getting paid for doing it then its commercial flight for the PILOT... thats the focus of the rule. i am still confused.

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There are no time limitations on commercial flying time Part 91 for PILOTs. CFI's are limited to 8 hours. Part 135 and Part 121 flights have pilot limitations.

Now - the P135 and P121 limitation are based on lookback. Before accepting a P135 or P121 flight assignment you must be able to look back from the expected end of the flight assignment and find the required rest AND that you have not exceeded the required flight time. When you are assigned a flight under Part 91, even if you are paid for it, there is no lookback, there is no limitation, you are ALWAYS legal to accept the flight (maybe not smart, but legal).

So I can sly 8 hours P135, fly 8 hours as a CFI and then fly as many hours as I can stay awake Part 91 - it's all good!
 
The 135 rewrite can't come fast enough. I think they should bring it more inline with 121. The on-demand world just isn't regulated enough and there are too many bad employers out there.
 
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Yeah, as much as intsructing would be great, I've always imagined being single pilot in the soup in the middle of the night going into hodunk, WA in the middle of winter. I really must be insane, but I don't think I could turn that kind of job down. I've always fantasized and been drawn to that kind of flying. It seems more exciting than flying a 737 at 30,000 feet on autopilot. Now if only it paid the same and you could do it until you retire.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm wondering how you plan on meeting the 1200 hour minimum to fly single pilot IFR under part 135 without being a CFI.
 
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I'm wondering how you plan on meeting the 1200 hour minimum to fly single pilot IFR under part 135 without being a CFI.

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Could do 135 VFR at 500 hours until the 1200.
 
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yeah, but if you are getting paid for doing it then its commercial flight for the PILOT... thats the focus of the rule. i am still confused.

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Yeah, we still get paid for the empty reposition home, but it's the "cost of doing business" for the company.

Last night was a perfect example of how this works:

1745: Pager goes off for an 1845 wheels-off time.
1815: Duty in
1840: Wheels off to MEM.
2145: Land in MEM

*Load freight, fuel, etc.*

2253: Wheels off to TDF (somewhere in NC)
0217: Land in TDF

*Unload freight*

At this point, I have flown 6.6 of my 8 hour limit. Dispatcher gets another trip that is only 50 total minutes of flying. So...

0341: Wheels off to reposition over to RDU (this does count against my 8 hours- the only reposition that doesn't is the empty one home).
0353: Land in RDU and park on the UPS ramp to await the A300 that is arriving with the "motherload."

Wait around, snooze in the back of the plane, and shoot the breeze with the other freight dogs until 0630. Get loaded with boxes to cover a quick 100nm leg for AirNow who's plane is down.

0705: Wheels off to EWN (New Bern, NC)
0742: Land in EWN.

*Unload freight*

So, my 14 hour duty day was up at 0815, but I dropped freight at 0742, with 7.4 hours of "commercial" flying so far. Now, I'm empty, and not repositioning to get freight, so I can go home, completely legal.

0838: Wheels off to head home.
1122: Land at home. Took longer than planned because Washington Center had a radar outage, so I had to fly on some wierd things called Airways. WTF?
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1145: Go off duty.

All said and done, it was 17.5 hours of duty and 10.1 hours of flight time.

Legal because: at 0742 when I dropped freight and completed the assignment, I still had 10 consecutive hours of rest in the past 24, and had flown under 8 hours (7.4).

It sucks sometimes being out so long, but man is it nice for the paycheck and logbook. I made enough to pay next month's rent in one (albeit, long) night... and I don't live in a dump, if you get my drift.

Add in bad weather, single pilot, and all the nighttime flying, and long days like this can get pretty demanding. I'm starting to wonder if this 135 re-write is just a carrot dangling from a stick though. Hopefully not, we could all use it.
 
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<snip>1145: Go off duty.

All said and done, it was 17.5 hours of duty and 10.1 hours of flight time.

Legal because: at 0742 when I dropped freight and completed the assignment, I still had 10 consecutive hours of rest in the past 24, and had flown under 8 hours (7.4).


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Just to clarify a little more for the people not familiar with these duty regs, your rest period for the purposes of your next "lookback" doesn't start until you finished your duty day at 1145. The earliest that you could be put back *on duty* is 2145 (10 hour consecutive rest period). Even though you were finished with 135 flying at 0742, rest period is based on "all commercial flying", not just on the 135 flying, thus the 1145 off-duty time dictates the start of your official rest period.

Confusing sometimes, isn't it?
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Thanks for clarifying, Steve.

What bothers me most, is that after we go off duty, and get our 10 hours of rest, we go back on call ("on the pager"). Not to be confused with on duty, because it doesn't count as duty time. Sometimes I'll get in early in the morning, sleep all day, stay up late that night, and then not get paged out until early the next morning. It really screws with your body clock. I have heard this will also be addressed in the re-write. I hope that it is.
 
"All said and done, it was 17.5 hours of duty and 10.1 hours of flight time."

The crap they are asking you to do is seriously unsafe. It boggles my mind that it can somehow be considered legal. Stuff like this is why airlines have unions...
 
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