Best airplane for the money

[TC_ABM]

Staggerwing - even at $250k plus

:yeahthat:

The absolute, most beautiful piece of art to ever grace the skies. There's no equivalent today.

Maybe it's just us Texans, but by God that is a beautiful plane.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

PA-24-250

<table class="inside-box" style="margin: 0px auto;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="430"><tbody><tr><td>Used price (current market avg.):
</td><td>$51,000
</td></tr><tr><td>Engine make/model:</td><td>Lycoming IO-540-C
</td></tr><tr><td>Horsepower@rpm@altitude: </td><td>250@2575@SL </td></tr><tr><td>Horsepower for takeoff:</td><td>250</td></tr><tr><td>TBO hrs.:
</td><td>2000 </td></tr><tr><td>Fuel type:</td><td>100LL
</td></tr><tr><td>Propeller type/diameter:
</td><td>Hartzell two-blade CS / 77
</td></tr><tr><td>Landing gear type:
</td><td>Tri/Retr.
</td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Gross weight (lbs.):</td> <td valign="middle">2900</td> </tr> <tr><td>Max landing weight (lbs.):</td><td>2900</td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Empty weight, std. (lbs.):</td> <td valign="middle">1690
</td> </tr> <tr><td>Equipped weight, as tested (lbs.):
</td><td>1827</td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Useful load, std. (lbs.):</td> <td valign="middle">1210</td> </tr> <tr><td>Useful load - equipped (lbs.):
</td><td>1073
</td></tr><tr><td>Payload, full std. fuel, 60 gals. (lbs.):
</td><td>850</td></tr><tr><td>Payload - full opt. fuel, 90 gals. (lbs.):</td><td>670
</td></tr><tr><td>Usable fuel (gals.): </td><td>37</td></tr> <tr><td>Oil capacity (qts.):</td><td>12
</td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Wingspan:</td> <td valign="middle">36 ft. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Overall length:</td> <td valign="middle">24 ft. 10 in.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Height:</td> <td valign="middle">7 ft. 5 in.</td> </tr> <tr><td>Wing area (sq. ft.):</td><td>178</td></tr><tr><td>Wing loading (lbs./sq. ft.):
</td><td>16.3</td></tr><tr><td>Power loading (lbs./hp.):
</td><td>11.6</td></tr><tr><td>Wheel base (in.):
</td><td>6 ft. 6 in.
</td></tr><tr><td>Wheel track (in.):
</td><td>9 ft. 10 in.
</td></tr><tr><td>Wheel size mains (in.):
</td><td>6.00 x 6
</td></tr><tr><td>Wheel size nose (in.):</td><td>6.00 x 6
</td></tr><tr><td>Seating capacity: </td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>Cabin doors:
</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Cabin length (in.):</td> <td valign="middle">108
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Cabin width (in.):</td> <td valign="middle">45</td> </tr> <tr><td>Cabin height (in.):
</td><td>47
</td></tr><tr><td>Baggage capacity (lbs./cu. ft.):</td><td>200/20
</td></tr><tr> <td colspan="2" valign="middle"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" valign="middle">

PERFORMANCE​

</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Max level speed (knots/mph): </td> <td valign="middle"> 165/190
</td> </tr> <tr><td>Cruise speed (knots/mph):
</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>75% power: </td><td> 157/181</td></tr><tr><td>65% power: </td><td> 154/177</td></tr><tr><td>55% power:
</td><td>142/164
</td></tr><tr><td>45% power:</td><td>142/164
</td></tr><tr><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Max. range opt. fuel, 45-min. reserve: (nm/sm):</td> <td valign="middle"> </td> </tr> <tr><td>75% power:
</td><td> 928/1068</td></tr><tr><td>65% power:
</td><td>1000/1151</td></tr><tr><td>55% power:
</td><td>1040/1197
</td></tr><tr><td>45% power:</td><td>1108/1275
</td></tr><tr><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Fuel consumption (gph):
</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>75% power:</td><td>13.7</td></tr><tr><td>65% power:</td><td>12.3</td></tr><tr><td>55% power:
</td><td>11.0
</td></tr><tr><td>45% power:</td><td>9.5
</td></tr><tr><td> </td><td> </td></tr> <tr><td>Estimated endurance (65%) (hrs): </td><td>6.5
</td></tr><tr><td>Stall speed (gear, flaps up) (knots):</td><td>61/70</td></tr><tr><td>Stall speed (gear, flaps down) (knots):</td><td>55/63
</td></tr><tr> <td valign="middle">Best rate of climb (SL fpm):</td> <td valign="middle">1350</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Service ceiling (ft.):</td> <td valign="middle">20,000</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Takeoff ground roll (ft.): </td> <td valign="middle">750</td> </tr> <tr><td>Takeoff over 50-ft. obstacle (ft.):</td><td>1650</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[RPM]

man.. you couldn't pay me to want to "ever" fly a slow boring cessna/piper type airplane ever again, let alone own one.. :buck:

Pitts S2 best bang for the buck hands down.. will be my next airplane purchase, I want a 2 seater next time..
Competition Aerobatics-2seats- older one can be had for 50k..


my RV-1 was the best bang for the buck EVER.. I bought it for only 15k back in 2005.. Aerobatic, Fast for 160hp (190mph), 2300fpm climb, 6gal/hr @ cruise, 5.5 hr range, unbeatable vis, single seat.. not the best in the world for long flights.. but I've done some 5+ hr trips in it..

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Pitts S2A but a S1T would do too.

 

[yoman793]

hard to go wrong with a J-3!

 

[Alchemy]

If I was actually going to use it for personal transportation, I'd probably get a C182RG or a C210, but if I could spend a little more (okay, a lot more) bonanza or baron, no question..

For just putzing around, probably a decathlon.

 

[meritflyer]

I think at $3M a PC-12 is the best bet.

Now, who has an extra $3M I can borrow?

 

[Kestrel452]

Piper Turbo Arrow!

BTW, anyone know of any good ones for sale?

 

[killbilly]

my RV-1 was the best bang for the buck EVER.. I bought it for only 15k back in 2005.. Aerobatic, Fast for 160hp (190mph), 2300fpm climb, 6gal/hr @ cruise, 5.5 hr range, unbeatable vis, single seat.. not the best in the world for long flights.. but I've done some 5+ hr trips in it..

I've looked at these guys a few times. Question...what's the insurance like on these things? Are they insured/categorized as experimentals?

 

[USMCmech]

I've looked at these guys a few times. Question...what's the insurance like on these things? Are they insured/categorized as experimentals?

They are certified as "expimental/amature built" and can do everything except carry passengers for hire.

Insurance is reasonable, similar to a similar priced "spam can".

The owner can do virtually all maintence themselves. Only an annual "condition inspection" is required do be done by a mechanic. If you were the builder you can apply for a "repairman certificate" allowing you to do that too.

You can non TSO parts if you wish. Why pay 10 bucks for a toggle switch when you can buy the exact same thing at Autozone.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Hey before you go buying I've heard many times over that a Bellanca 17-30 is about the best bang for your buck. Some folks aren't down with fabric stuff but I've had no complaints with it.

 

[tprops4me]

Cozy Mark IV. Find a partially completed project and I guarantee you'll spend way less than 50K. 4-seater, 200-220 cruise, 1100 nm radius, a little over 1,000 useful load.
Best of all you don't have to pay more for that part just because it says certified, but the exact same part is at Auto Zone for alot less.

If you only want to operate off of concrete it's ok. All these plastic airplanes, SR-22 included, seem to eat up a lot of runway for takeoff and landing. Club planes should be versatile.

 

[USMCmech]

If you only want to operate off of concrete it's ok. All these plastic airplanes, SR-22 included, seem to eat up a lot of runway for takeoff and landing. Club planes should be versatile.

RVs usually have a ground roll under 500ft. Just take the wheel pants off first.


Now EZs, Lancair, and glassairs OTOH, need a nice long runway. They also glide like bank safes.

 

[killbilly]

RVs usually have a ground roll under 500ft. Just take the wheel pants off first.


Now EZs, Lancair, and glassairs OTOH, need a nice long runway. They also glide like bank safes.

There was an older gent who had a glassair at TKI. Saw him take off one day...

Damn thing may glide like a bank safe but it launches like an Aegis missile...

 

[RPM]

I've looked at these guys a few times. Question...what's the insurance like on these things? Are they insured/categorized as experimentals?

yes experimental.. insurance, appx. $400 a year for me.. hangar $100 a month.. MX/inspection costs.. less than $100 a year because I did it all myself.

experimentals are so much better as far as being able to do everything yourself mx wise and put whatever the hell parts you want in it..so long as you know what you're doing.. You will save a fortune on annuals etc.. I don't need a $1200 cessna certified fuel pump when I can buy the same thing for $14 at the auto parts store and put it in myself..

you will get 5 times the bang for the buck with an experimental over a certified.. they are typically better in every way, faster, lighter, more fuel efficient, more payload, far cheaper to maintain etc..

 

[RPM]

RVs usually have a ground roll under 500ft. Just take the wheel pants off first.


Now EZs, Lancair, and glassairs OTOH, need a nice long runway. They also glide like bank safes.

My RV could get up in 250' easy but it was very light..

 

[Okie_Pilot]

I've heard that a Cessna 310 was the best bang for your buck. Older multi-engine, 6 seats, pretty fast cruise speed.

 

[killbilly]

yes experimental.. insurance, appx. $400 a year for me.. hangar $100 a month.. MX/inspection costs.. less than $100 a year because I did it all myself.

experimentals are so much better as far as being able to do everything yourself mx wise and put whatever the hell parts you want in it..so long as you know what you're doing.. You will save a fortune on annuals etc.. I don't need a $1200 cessna certified fuel pump when I can buy the same thing for $14 at the auto parts store and put it in myself..

you will get 5 times the bang for the buck with an experimental over a certified.. they are typically better in every way, faster, lighter, more fuel efficient, more payload, far cheaper to maintain etc..

Hmmm...you really got me thinking here. Up until this thread, I had never seriously considered owning an experimental airplane. I just found an RV-3 for sale for $26K. That's really not a bad price considering the performance.

I've been toying with the idea of buying an airplane for a couple of years now, and while I could swing the note payment on it* the cost of ownership has always been a little bit daunting to me. However, a few pilots around here have sorta been swinging me in this direction lately.

As pretty (and affordable, surprisingly) as something like an RV-3 is, I think something with at least two seats would be more appropriate...I like to take up passengers, and having a wee 'lil bit 'o cargo room would be nice. To that end, something like an RV-5 or -6 would be pretty cool I think - I'm not familiar with the various designations. And finally, I think I'd want to hire a CFI who was familiar with the bird who could go up with me and teach me to fly it. It'd be nice to get a TW endorsement in a plane like that which you own.

Killing me. Absolutely killing me. I have airplane owner lust so bad it's scary.

* - some of you might feel compelled to call me out on the fact that I talked about financing the airplane. Fact is, an airplane is one of the only things I would finance (house being another) mostly because the equity/resale value on them is pretty strong compared to something like a car. So yeah, I'm a hypocrite and have some double-standards.

 

[RPM]

Hmmm...you really got me thinking here. Up until this thread, I had never seriously considered owning an experimental airplane. I just found an RV-3 for sale for $26K. That's really not a bad price considering the performance.

.

The RV3 is an awesome performance airplane for the price (25-40K).. it is basically the same as my old RV1 just slightly faster because its cleaner, most have more power too..most 3's can cruise 185-200, 4-5 hr range, 2000' fpm + climb rate, 23,000' ceiling. My rv1 was Van's prototype for the RV3 so you won't find another one of those for sale.. there was only 2 made, the other is in a museum. The rv-3 is a fairly docile tailwheel but you would want to get some instruction in an rv-4 preferably if you don't have some high performance tailwheel time.. a cub or a citabria won't cut it for training in my opinion, they are way to easy to fly and won't prepare you for something responsive and "lively" on the ground. The RV-4 is easier to land though, longer wheelbase.. The RV-4 is just the 2 seat version of the rv3 which can be had for(35-60k) My single seater didn't have much storage if your worried about that.. I could stuff a duffel bag of clothes behind the seat and some oil/spare parts.. thats about it. You can kinda see in the picture below, just behind the seat rollbar there is a storage platform about 2 ft long and 18" deep. Airplane was very small and only 850lbs.. so very easy to pick it up and wheel it into a corner by hand for cheaper storage if you want to share hanger space.

The RV-6/7 are the side by side seating, I don't care for those at all, and I don't fit in them with the way the seats are designed being 6'4"..

I just love the bubble canopy vis and feeling like i'm in an old fighter plane in the singles or tandems, but I grew up drooling over p-51's and Spit's so Its the ONLY way to go IMO.. when you strap on a chute and lower yourself into a bubble canopy with a stick.. thats when you REALLY feel like your flying, you just feel part of the plane. Side by side seating is for girls and bankers.. I do enough of that at work in the embraer:crazy:

The rv8 is the badass of the bunch.. tandem seating..a lot more performance.. but a lot more expensive.. 70-120k

If your interested in a single seater. A Pitts S1 is the cheapest best performing airplane you can buy period.. they can be readily found for (20k-30K) Thats what I learned aerobatics in and had a bunch of time in before the RV.. that will be my next purchase for sure (2seat) though.. I never had ANY instruction in my Vans since its a single seater and me being to cheap to find someone to teach me in a RV4, I just had to jump in it and go scare myself.. and hope to not die.. first time out very gusty winds.. was interesting:rawk:

Airplane financing is no worse than all the idiots financing new 30-50k cars every day.. at least you don't lose value like crazy every year on a plane. Experimentals can be VERY affordable.. even to regional pilots.. I think most people just don't realize it and assume it costs a fortune.. I can own a plane and have fun (including mx/hanger/insurance) for the price of someones payment on a new Acura.. which one would you rather have?

Here is a few more pics.

 

[killbilly]

Well...tandem seating would be fine...wouldn't have to be side by side, I suppose.

Do people do TW training in RV4s?

I imagine insurance would be considerably higher for me (95TT) than for you (airline pilot) but still...