Being well-rested is too costly.

Hey Mike, Surreal,


I've seen them both, and both of you guys on the small side of mediocre. Max will back me up if necessary.

So there, I settled it, can we get on with things now?
 
"Did ya see that hawk gp after those hens? He scared 'em! That Rhode Island Red turned white, then blue. Rhode Island, red white and blue! That's a joke, son, a flag-waver! You're built too low. The fast ones go over your head. Ya got a hole in your glove. I keep pitchin' 'em and you keep missin' 'em! Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball! Eye. Ball. Eyeball! I almost had a gag, son--a joke, that is!"
 
SteveC said:
"Did ya see that hawk gp after those hens? He scared 'em! That Rhode Island Red turned white, then blue. Rhode Island, red white and blue! That's a joke, son, a flag-waver! You're built too low. The fast ones go over your head. Ya got a hole in your glove. I keep pitchin' 'em and you keep missin' 'em! Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball! Eye. Ball. Eyeball! I almost had a gag, son--a joke, that is!"
Click to expand...

Love it....
:beer:
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Since I'm far too lazy to do a google search for it right now...insert giant picture of a CHILL PILL right here.

What part of "I kid" did you fail to grasp? Was it the "I" part? Or the "kid" section of the two word statement...

For your convenience:

Definition of "I" : Here

Definition of "kid": Here
Click to expand...

Humor fail on my part- sorry.. that last post of mine to you was actually a joke. Not as effective as I thought, I gather. My bad. :)
 
Firebird2XC said:
You are correct, sir. This is not a simple issue.

Let's examine this aspect: We all know via scientific study that at certain points of the day, a person has functional abilities in line with someone who has consumed too much alcohol to legally operate an aircraft.

Yet, we require pilots and other crewmembers to operates in this situation every day, AND we require them to self assess and make determination of their fitness to fly in a suitable state of awareness.

On top of this, because of the nature of compensation, work rules, corporate culture, etc, there may be additional factors that apply to the decision of the pilot on whether or not they're fit to continue.

We all recognize that aviation accidents are the result of a chain link of errors where if one of the errors were correct the accident would be prevented.

The safety protocol we use to ensure multi-layered protection applies to nearly all areas. Two sets of eyes. Redundant systems.

When it comes to self-assessment at a point where science has proven that judgment is impaired, why are we placing nearly exclusive oversight of the issue on the person with impaired judgment?

This seems contradictory. We seem to make the assumption that because most rise above the challenge (or at least haven't been forced to rely too heavily on their decision) that there is no problem. If we fail to account for the lowest common denominator in human factors just as we do in terms of aircraft design, maintenance, etc, are we not asking for someone to fail eventually?
Click to expand...


Made a mistake here, I did. Let sidebar detract from my logic flow and my greater points went unaddressed. Mea culpa.

So I refer all to the above quoted statements, and suggest that the disparity in the safety chain in terms of fatigue and the fact that cost is the differentiating factor be considered.

Thoughts?
 
The junior vs senior thing is a red herring. We've got guys at my airline that have been on RESERVE going on four years as CAs. The reserve guys are the ones that get beat down the most. 10 days off in a month might seem like a lot, but I'm here to tell ya, those two days off after 5-6 days of 10-13 hour duty days and a mixture of getting your clock flipped 3-4 times is NOT enough to get a decent recovery. The way the rules stand now, I could show for ready reserve at 7:30 in the morning, get used for a trip that gets me back at 9:30 pm. get woken up by scheduling at 7:30 the next morning and told I'm being released into 10 hours of "rest" so I can do a high speed/continuous duty overnight/stand up that starts at 18:30 that afternoon and ends at 08:00 the next day. When I get back from the CDO, I could then be released into rest for 10 hours to start a 3 day TRIP with reduced rest the first night at 18:00 that afternoon. Think it's not legal? Yeah, that was my week two weeks ago. That last day didn't happen. Oh yeah, I lost out on roughly $200 for calling in fatigured on that one. So, yes, Mike. I guess you could say I'm willing to take a pay cut for safety....
 
kellwolf said:
The junior vs senior thing is a red herring. We've got guys at my airline that have been on RESERVE going on four years as CAs. The reserve guys are the ones that get beat down the most. 10 days off in a month might seem like a lot, but I'm here to tell ya, those two days off after 5-6 days of 10-13 hour duty days and a mixture of getting your clock flipped 3-4 times is NOT enough to get a decent recovery. The way the rules stand now, I could show for ready reserve at 7:30 in the morning, get used for a trip that gets me back at 9:30 pm. get woken up by scheduling at 7:30 the next morning and told I'm being released into 10 hours of "rest" so I can do a high speed/continuous duty overnight/stand up that starts at 18:30 that afternoon and ends at 08:00 the next day. When I get back from the CDO, I could then be released into rest for 10 hours to start a 3 day TRIP with reduced rest the first night at 18:00 that afternoon. Think it's not legal? Yeah, that was my week two weeks ago. That last day didn't happen. Oh yeah, I lost out on roughly $200 for calling in fatigured on that one. So, yes, Mike. I guess you could say I'm willing to take a pay cut for safety....
Click to expand...

Remember Seniority is relative, longevity is a time. The last FO on the list could have 30 years longevity, but that's still the junior pilot.
 
Nick said:
I am still waiting to read about how you have adjusted to fatigue without it compromising safety.
Click to expand...

I've learned to plan my days according to whatever schedule I'm pulling.

Take for example during my work day I have 3 layovers during my 13hrs on duty.

1st Layover I sit at Logan for 90mins ,so after I swap vehicles I eat a quick snack and close my eyes for a bit. Not really a nap,just rest.

2nd Layover is only 35 mins at Woods Hole. Not much time to do much except recline a seat back and relax until the ferry comes in.

3rd Layover, again at Logan is roughly an hour so again,quick bite to eat and I do try to catnap at this point beacuse my 515pm trip out of Logan and S.Station is my toughest.

If I do follow that plan though the day than I'm usually alright. Of course it does not always work out like that but I do what I can to stay rested. My day itself is long since I'm up at 5a,out the door by 6a usually not back home until 930-945pm and not asleep until maybe 11.

Again the majority of our skeds are written with duty days of between 10 to 15 hrs with some having the max 10 hrs driving on them. The work group WANTS it that way and since it keeps the number of drivers low, the company obliges. Its stressed in the interview process and usually that keeps the weak ones out, but they slip though sometimes and the usually quit within the first 60 days.

As our #1 in seniority says "Do the job or it will do you."
And seeing as he's been pulling schedules since 1967, the man might be on to something
 
Oh thats all well and dandy IF you actually know your schedule for the day, or week. On reserve not so much. There isn't a human out there that could wake up at 6 am after a full nights rest to start their call in, expecting, and being rested for some sort of flight during the day, then get released to rest, (yeah try to sleep then) and then fly an all night flight getting in a 6 am body time.

Try it some day that you are off, get a full nights sleep, wake up, you are then free to do whatever you want until 8 pm that night, but starting at 8 try to stay awake until 6 am. Bet a beer at NJC you cant do it.
 
OldTownPilot said:
Oh thats all well and dandy IF you actually know your schedule for the day, or week. On reserve not so much. There isn't a human out there that could wake up at 6 am after a full nights rest to start their call in, expecting, and being rested for some sort of flight during the day, then get released to rest, (yeah try to sleep then) and then fly an all night flight getting in a 6 am body time.

Try it some day that you are off, get a full nights sleep, wake up, you are then free to do whatever you want until 8 pm that night, but starting at 8 try to stay awake until 6 am. Bet a beer at NJC you cant do it.
Click to expand...

Been there, done, that, microslept out on the arrival, and the skipper straight nodded off 3 times for 20 minutes at a time during that leg.

Not good.
 
jtrain609 said:
Been there, done, that, microslept out on the arrival, and the skipper straight nodded off 3 times for 20 minutes at a time during that leg.

Not good.
Click to expand...

Thats regular coverage on the 756 to get all the europe flights coverered. Gobs of people on AM reserve, if there is nothing for ya, you get double pumped, to either a second callout or released to a trip starting at 9pm.

And the company "will not use this practice to the best of their ability"

CAL (and CAL pilots) is going to be in a world of hurt this summer as far as staffing is concerned. I dont think there is a single pilot that is not baffled by the lack of recalling the 147 this spring to cover the summer. It just goes to show that they aren't furloughed, they are hostages for negotiations.
 
kellwolf said:
The junior vs senior thing is a red herring. We've got guys at my airline that have been on RESERVE going on four years as CAs. The reserve guys are the ones that get beat down the most. 10 days off in a month might seem like a lot, but I'm here to tell ya, those two days off after 5-6 days of 10-13 hour duty days and a mixture of getting your clock flipped 3-4 times is NOT enough to get a decent recovery. The way the rules stand now, I could show for ready reserve at 7:30 in the morning, get used for a trip that gets me back at 9:30 pm. get woken up by scheduling at 7:30 the next morning and told I'm being released into 10 hours of "rest" so I can do a high speed/continuous duty overnight/stand up that starts at 18:30 that afternoon and ends at 08:00 the next day. When I get back from the CDO, I could then be released into rest for 10 hours to start a 3 day TRIP with reduced rest the first night at 18:00 that afternoon. Think it's not legal? Yeah, that was my week two weeks ago. That last day didn't happen. Oh yeah, I lost out on roughly $200 for calling in fatigured on that one. So, yes, Mike. I guess you could say I'm willing to take a pay cut for safety....
Click to expand...

Sounds like our scheduling managers are having coffee with yours. When I was first hired at "the family airline" after being used in the morning, it was pretty common to just be released.

Not anymore. Doing a stand up, then being back on reserve 8 hours later is par for the course. Its disgusting.

At least now our airline is being up front about extensions/drafts/junior mans. A recent message through our schedule program:

Please be advised: May schedules may contain pink GDO days. Crew Planning is trying out a new reserve tracking program. The program still contains bugs that have not been corrected. The pink GDO days are days off but they are NOT true GDO days. For example, a crewmember can still be drafted/extended/or junior manned on these days.
Click to expand...

And here is the subject line of a recent memo from our VP:

Sacrifices – Going Above and Beyond
Click to expand...
 
OldTownPilot said:
Oh thats all well and dandy IF you actually know your schedule for the day, or week. On reserve not so much. There isn't a human out there that could wake up at 6 am after a full nights rest to start their call in, expecting, and being rested for some sort of flight during the day, then get released to rest, (yeah try to sleep then) and then fly an all night flight getting in a 6 am body time.

Try it some day that you are off, get a full nights sleep, wake up, you are then free to do whatever you want until 8 pm that night, but starting at 8 try to stay awake until 6 am. Bet a beer at NJC you cant do it.
Click to expand...

I only drink Heineken....no cheap stuff :D

But I have had days like that when I was on the extraboard, where you get used and abused. Suffice to say the minute I could, I got off the board

And I'm really not trying to be an ass, but trying to be a devil's advocate. The traveling public is gonna say the same thing I said, "Well I work 12 hours why can't pilots?" Lots of people looks at my hours and go OMG,but I like it, and on Fridays the paycheck is the reward for the sacrifice.
 
A320_DUDE said:
And I'm really not trying to be an ass, but trying to be a devil's advocate. The traveling public is gonna say the same thing I said, "Well I work 12 hours why can't pilots?" Lots of people looks at my hours and go OMG,but I like it, and on Fridays the paycheck is the reward for the sacrifice.
Click to expand...

Who cares what the traveling public thinks.

If a passenger thinks that a 16 hour day is safe, is that really an opinion you care about anyway? I sure don't.

The majority of them do agree that our rest rules are inadequate.
 
A320_DUDE said:
The traveling public is gonna say the same thing I said, "Well I work 12 hours why can't pilots?" Lots of people looks at my hours and go OMG,but I like it, and on Fridays the paycheck is the reward for the sacrifice.
Click to expand...

This is also the same traveling public that thinks we're off half the month and have long layovers in nice hotels. I'd wager I probably work more 12 hour days than most of the traveling public. If someone works 60 hours a week. In fact, my duty time for last week was over that since I had 6 days. I'd also ask anyone that actually DOES work that much in any job if they'd trust someone that had worked that much with the safety of their family. If they say "yes," well, we're more broken than I thought. Even after 10-12 hours working as a ramper I was making simple mathematical mistakes on a regular basis.
 
A320_DUDE said:
The traveling public is gonna say the same thing I said, "Well I work 12 hours why can't pilots?" Lots of people looks at my hours and go OMG,but I like it, and on Fridays the paycheck is the reward for the sacrifice.
Click to expand...


What happens when the "traveling public" makes mistakes in their 12 hour day jobs? Somebodies power goes out, no water, pothole still in the road, accounting error made to cost someone tons of money??

What happens when I make a mistake after being overworked on an "average" 12 hour duty day on reserve? Depending on the mistake, I just killed 53 people including myself...

The consequences of a mistake by a pilot are waaayyyy greater and more deadly than most of your "traveling public".
 
kellwolf said:
Even after 10-12 hours working as a ramper I was making simple mathematical mistakes on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

Mental math, read-back of clearances, and the ability to decipher complex MELs all greatly concern me, but it's the loss of judgement and increased levels of apathy that downright scare me. Study after study has shown that humans just stop CARING after so much duty time.

When both crew members are so tired at the outer marker that they just want to "get it over with" - much like the resident physician who just wanted his patient to die so he could get some sleep - I get the chills. How did they get there in the first place? Like all incidents/accidents, a snowball effect occurs. We're tired, but think we can push through the last leg, despite the fact that our judgement-making ability has already eroded. Then a long taxi ensues. Then we hit inclement weather. We get bad vectors and fly a non-standard approach. Then we arrive at an airport with a contaminated runway. Then we have an excursion.

The data is overwhelming, and the FAA would rather focus on pilots' cell phone/computer usage than address a problem that has buried many loved ones.
 
ctab5060X said:
What happens when I make a mistake after being overworked on an "average" 12 hour duty day on reserve? Depending on the mistake, I just killed 53 people including myself...
Click to expand...

Same here.... I screw up 55 people lose their lives. Hence the 10/15 rule for us.

kellwolf said:
If someone works 60 hours a week. In fact, my duty time for last week was over that since I had 6 days. I'd also ask anyone that actually DOES work that much in any job if they'd trust someone that had worked that much with the safety of their family. If they say "yes," well, we're more broken than I thought.
Click to expand...

I work 65+ hours a week, I would put my family on one of your flights with no hesitation beacuse I trust that you are professional to say "enough is enough" if you are feeling fatigued. Hopefully you would feel the same if you needed a ride down to the Cape with me.

Listen, I don't doubt that some of the trips are pushing the limits. I'm the type of person who can do 12-15 hr days and not have a problem with it...in face I like longer days. I personally don't see the problem,but thats not to say that there is one. I think however that pilots should try to work within their own groups (scheduling commitees) before rushing in any type of legislation. Things that look good in the dark, are scary as hell in the day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top