RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Hey, a good puzzle piece stealing mission every now and then is good for the soul!, LOL. I kid I kid..
Being well-rested is too costly.
- Thread starter C150J
- Start date
Hey, a good puzzle piece stealing mission every now and then is good for the soul!, LOL. I kid I kid..
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
So you're saying, sometimes resorting to somewhat sneaky tactics to snag a piece for your own amusement is okay?
The "I'm not here for Josh" part takes care of that.
*insert useless passage that makes me seem well rounded*
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you're right.
I suppose maybe I thought it funny that you were suggesting a veteran leave America rather than utilize the rights he personally defends to criticize the things he finds questionable about it.
A hall of mirrors, this place.
"Mirror, mirror, on the wall- why'd you kick him in the balls?"
Have fun Charlie.
I'll depart the thread and let the "this sucks" and :yeahthat: posts dominate it.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
So you're saying, sometimes resorting to somewhat sneaky tactics to snag a piece for your own amusement is okay?
Since I'm far too lazy to do a google search for it right now...insert giant picture of a CHILL PILL right here.
What part of "I kid" did you fail to grasp? Was it the "I" part? Or the "kid" section of the two word statement...
For your convenience:
Definition of "I" : Here
Definition of "kid": Here
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Okay I get all that. What you just described is the working on the extraboard here, where you have no steady schedule and and they work you to the limits of the the regs and contract. Day work,night work and everything all betweeen in the course of 5 days, I've done and never been to the point of "OMG I can't function". Granted I got off the extraboard at the first chance but if motivated I would do it again
Maybe I'm being block headed, but as some one who works in a field where the feds set my work rules as: 10hrs drving/15hrs on duty and 70hrs in 8days, its hard to take some of complaints seriouly. I'm not saying they are not valid, but IMHO I have a much strenous and stressful gig with longer work hours and I've adjusted. That's why I said people need to REALLY look at how and what they are bidding, I think alot of this can be resolved by folks looking at what an actual pairing does and not just days off and what it pays.
C150J
Well-Known Member
Couple of thoughts, with no disrespect intended:
- Does your bus have a 480-page MEL book, where sometimes you encounter multiple deferred items that effect everything from contaminated runway operation to RVSM-capability, thereby effecting fuel-burn?
- How many buses do you operate daily? Over the course of a 14-hour, 7-leg day, it is not uncommon to fly 4 different aircraft, all with different MELs. It's almost like a physician trying to remember which of the 20 patients he treated today has a drug allergy (which, by the way, is a common medical mistake attributed to fatigue).
- If your next destination is closed, do you have the ability to pull over, or must you drive around in circles until an expect further clearance time, where every turn in the hold narrows your alternate options, all while cumulus clouds begin tower over you?
- How many pages of paperwork must you review every bus-leg? Over the course of any given day, pilots must consult 15-20 pages of TOL data, weather packages, and Jepp plates each leg.
I am CERTAINLY not saying that driving a bus is easier than flying, especially when your'e doing it 12 hours a day. The point I'm trying to make (and please correct me if I'm wrong with my aforementioned points - I am the first to admit that I don't know much about bus driving!) is that flying in a professional environment demands levels discipline and attention to detail that cannot be met when fatigued.
Also, 14-hour days are common, even when you've only been scheduled to 12. As previous posters said, Roger Cohen deals in averages for deceptive reasons. According to the BLS, the average airline pilot makes $119,000 a year.
Not all of us are senior enough to get "good lines," nor do they exist in general. Police officers complain when they have to flip their schedules once or twice a year... most lines force us to do it daily.
- Does your bus have a 480-page MEL book, where sometimes you encounter multiple deferred items that effect everything from contaminated runway operation to RVSM-capability, thereby effecting fuel-burn?
- How many buses do you operate daily? Over the course of a 14-hour, 7-leg day, it is not uncommon to fly 4 different aircraft, all with different MELs. It's almost like a physician trying to remember which of the 20 patients he treated today has a drug allergy (which, by the way, is a common medical mistake attributed to fatigue).
- If your next destination is closed, do you have the ability to pull over, or must you drive around in circles until an expect further clearance time, where every turn in the hold narrows your alternate options, all while cumulus clouds begin tower over you?
- How many pages of paperwork must you review every bus-leg? Over the course of any given day, pilots must consult 15-20 pages of TOL data, weather packages, and Jepp plates each leg.
I am CERTAINLY not saying that driving a bus is easier than flying, especially when your'e doing it 12 hours a day. The point I'm trying to make (and please correct me if I'm wrong with my aforementioned points - I am the first to admit that I don't know much about bus driving!) is that flying in a professional environment demands levels discipline and attention to detail that cannot be met when fatigued.
Also, 14-hour days are common, even when you've only been scheduled to 12. As previous posters said, Roger Cohen deals in averages for deceptive reasons. According to the BLS, the average airline pilot makes $119,000 a year.
Not all of us are senior enough to get "good lines," nor do they exist in general. Police officers complain when they have to flip their schedules once or twice a year... most lines force us to do it daily.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I would like to know how you have adjusted.
How does a human being adjust to being fatigued?
You can say you are more used to it but really how can you adjust?
This is not a legitimate argument.
Someone is going to fly the pairing no matter who bids it. If nobody bids it, the junior people will get it.
Another thing. You can bid as many days off per month as you want or you can bid nice short duty periods and get 12 days off a month.
I bid max productivity -- this month I will block 80 hours with 19 days off. Twice this month I've done a 3-day trip that blocks 23:45. The duty periods are 14, 13, and 14 hours. Layovers of 11 and 10 hours. Outrageous! Not a good idea. Very tired by the end of day three. But I bid it and here's why.
I could have looked at it a month ago while doing my bid and thought, nah, that one's just too much in three days...I think I'll bid this 20 hour 3-day instead, with a few less hours on duty and two 13 hour layovers instead.
Then I'd show up for the less valuable but easier 3-day and we'd have some ridiculous groundstop to EWR or LGA or wherever, because they haven't added runways in 40 years, and my trip would turn into the same amount of duty as that original tough 3-day, but for several hours less credit!! That means I'd essentially be donating a day off to the delays, to make up for it.
"Going easy on yourself" in the bid and sacrificing a day or two off in order to get significantly easier trips only makes sense in some specific situations. Most of the time one would be an idiot to pass up a more productive trip, all other things equal.
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
C150, I'm don't feel disrespected, and I hope nobody is getting upset....I'm just trying to wrap my head around the details and get a better understanding.
No. MX decides whats legal for the road,but I can (and have) refused said equipment with no bias if I don't think its roadworthy. My license (and life) is on the line,not theirs.
On a normal day on "WH-4" I drive 2 different units on 4 trips. Roughly 8.5hrs of driving in a 13 hr duty day. With summer coming normal will go out the window quickly.As far as the swaps...I have it easier as I know every unit in the BZ fleet, so I know who the "bad actors" are
Never had a destination close, but have "gone dead" on hours trying to fight my way into New York. 10 hours from Hyannis to NYC....never again.
Not much,just update the log, check the schedule then its time to beat feet.
We have the same level of discipline and attention to detail that aviators have. We have to, a second of inattention can cause a world of hurt and the roadways are littered with the careers of drivers who thought otherwise.
I might sound like a jerk for saying this,but that part of being junior. Sometimes, actually alot of time you have to eat a bad schedule. It comes with the territory and while it does suck, I know that everybody over me has done the same and they have survived. I work the Cape division beacuse with 2.5 years of seniority I can hold a decent sked out there. I would rather not commute 90mins to work,but I can't hold anything good out of Providence or Newport. I knew that walking in the door and I've accepted that. That's why out of my hiring class of 10 its only 3 of us left.
Now I have a question that is along the same vein of what Mike brought up. Are pilots willing to take a cut in pay if the tighter Hours of Service rules are applied?
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Well it looks like being a airline pilot is a one of the top ten most stressful jobs in America.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36715336?slide=6
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36715336?slide=6
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
No.
Ah, Mike no care about making friends. . . only being Mike, the anti-regional Pilot.
So then don't tell me to leave. Were you not attempting to "influence" me by your one word post? At least I put a couple sentences together from time to time.
It should be clear what Mike's motivations are, and what he would like everyone to achieve.
Attend ERAU, find cool 135 gig, find cool ____ Gig, moral of story: To be Mike, you have to have no vested interest in the success of labor or more importantly, the safety of the traveling public.
Vested interest. Some have it, some do not, and some never will.
As I've stated multiple times before - it's a fruitless endeavor to convince non-121 professional pilots why we (121 pilots) feel it is important to strive for whatever professional protection we are seeking (presently - improved DT/FT regulations). They don't operate in the same bubble, or deal with the 16 hour / 6 leg duty days with multiple 2 or 3 hour sits.
They (largely) are enjoying the challenges of a random schedule, a couple legs a day, and comfortable overnights where they can get enough sleep all while enjoying multiple beers on said overnight.
Good for them. . .congratulate them for reaching the pinnacle of their chosen craft. But don't waste your time trying to inform them, much less even highlighting the challenges those of us outside of their little bubble are trying to operate.
Just wish them good luck, since that's too difficult for some of them to even do.
Ah yes, that's why I'm here. Job well done Mike.
Mikes perception can never be flawed. You'll notice this eventually.
Ah - finally. See Ya! Good luck Mike!
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Of course not.
Then again, I'm not going to expect everyone to recognize the risk in operating multiple 16 hour duty days, minimum rest periods, 6 leg days, etc. flight schedules.
I'm certainly not going to expect non-121 pilots, or those who have turned their back on this side of the profession to even acknowledge the challenges.
Others do, but I've recognize it's not our non-121 pilot peers we have to convince.
It's the legislators in the US Senate and House of Representatives we have to convince. Of which, we are doing a fine (not great) job at. Even if the "market" (re: capitalism, c/o Airline management) is trying to stonewall every effort to improve safety and reduce cases of fatigue. You know, the same thing they've been doing for over thirty years now.
Either we achieve success now, or we wait another few years and another plane goes down, and the incident chain reveals that fatigue / lapse of judgment, etc, played a role and we go through this whole fight again. I just hope it's not me or any of my peers here today.
We have an opportunity to fix a broken system that has put $$ ahead of actually being responsible for the lives we carry on a regular basis.
The ethics of playing the numbers and having a catastrophic insurance policy to pay off the families of the dead is just sick, and yet we allow it because we've subscribed to the narrative of capitalism rather than humanity and a touch of moral respect.
My position is simple.
Improve Duty time and max flight time regulations. Get rid of "Min rest." ALPA's suggestions, and the graduated scale that was recommended to the FAA is a wonderful solution.
Airline management isn't ever going to support anything that reduces their ability to "save" (not even going to get into making money - lord knows they have screwed that up far too long ago) money.
Those without a vested interest in the professionals' fighting for these changes will also never support these measures because they are not the ones having to work in the environment where these changes will occur.
To 121 pilots, operationally, these changes are 100% beneficial to our craft - and more importantly - to the people that trust us regularly as passengers.
Nick
Well-Known Member
This mentality has no place in commercial aviation.
Do the passengers get to choose which flights are operated by a crew that's been on duty 38 hours in the preceding three days with 6 hours of sleep two nights in a row? No.
They show up after having bought their tickets and they don't care if the crew is junior or senior, they want them to have had a reasonable amount of rest before they get on the plane and they expect the FAA to ensure that it happens. Bad assumption, unfortunately. But not their fault.
How have you come to the conclusion that pilots will take a pay cut if more restrictive duty limits and rest periods are implemented?
Loss of productivity does not result in a pay cut.
It might mean 80 hours of credit takes 14 workdays instead of 13.
When looking at it from a monthly schedule standpoint there is no pay cut. From a daily schedule standpoint, yes, there could be a reduction in the amount of hours that one could credit in a day (though there is no indication in any of these rules that the block limit in a duty period would drop by much at all) but that is not how a schedule is bid.
I am still waiting to read about how you have adjusted to fatigue without it compromising safety.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
You're right Mike.
(largely). I don't know what type of schedules you have dealt with, or are dealing with.
I don't see too many 121 pilots come into your nice little Part 91/135, or whatever it is you're flying these days, environment telling you how you need to run your show or what work rules and new pieces of legislation needs to be taken care of.
We certainly welcome your input, but when it's obvious you're making a wonderful case for being the Anti-regional pilot Guy, it's kinda silly if you really want us to listen to you.
I'll save you the lecture when you stop trying to lecture others as far as what is best for them.
Brief as my active line flying has been, obviously due to no fault of my own, the legislative landscape that impacts my corner of our profession is still quite important to me. My comments to your short rhetoric has little to do with regional flying, but more to do with your attitude towards those working hard to change the legislative and regulatory landscape for the segment of the industry I worked in, and will certainly work in again here soon.
surreal1221 said:
(largely). I don't know what type of schedules you have dealt with, or are dealing with.
I don't see too many 121 pilots come into your nice little Part 91/135, or whatever it is you're flying these days, environment telling you how you need to run your show or what work rules and new pieces of legislation needs to be taken care of.
We certainly welcome your input, but when it's obvious you're making a wonderful case for being the Anti-regional pilot Guy, it's kinda silly if you really want us to listen to you.
I'll save you the lecture when you stop trying to lecture others as far as what is best for them.
Brief as my active line flying has been, obviously due to no fault of my own, the legislative landscape that impacts my corner of our profession is still quite important to me. My comments to your short rhetoric has little to do with regional flying, but more to do with your attitude towards those working hard to change the legislative and regulatory landscape for the segment of the industry I worked in, and will certainly work in again here soon.
Apparently you missed the part where I said I'm on the same side of wanting shorter duty days. I raised questions and pointed out flaws in arguments to help improve the INDUSTRY as a whole.
You're the one that creates this artificial boundary between "sides". If the entry-level part 121 jobs were decent I'd consider it. When I was in a position to move on from flight instructing I chose 135 freight over Colgan and Expressjet because I couldn't afford to live on the salary those companies were offering.
You like to come in here and post the blood>profits and i love america smartass comments. That really helps.
Don't yell at the guy whose driving a bus telling you about your job, yell at the pilot with 4 times your time and has been at tables negotiating duty times before.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Ah Mikey.
I'm not yelling at anyone champ. Don't worry. Only person I am taking issue with right now is you and your sensitivity.
I'll let others handle the Bus driver. Not gonna get into that discussion, but since you couldn't take a little bit of satire and hints of comedy (perhaps my sense of humor doesn't mesh well with yours) I couldn't let you off the hook that quickly.
I <3 you.
I'm not yelling at anyone champ. Don't worry. Only person I am taking issue with right now is you and your sensitivity.
I'll let others handle the Bus driver. Not gonna get into that discussion, but since you couldn't take a little bit of satire and hints of comedy (perhaps my sense of humor doesn't mesh well with yours) I couldn't let you off the hook that quickly.
I <3 you.
Well I'll tell you, I certainly don't fall into that category of non-121 people. I have a working understanding....as much as a non-121 guy can..... of the concerns of 121 pilots, especially in this realm. And I fully agree with their concerns. I also understand the many hurdles that are in their way, and the reality of getting around/over those hurdles. And just because I'm highlighting the hurdles, doesn't at all mean I don't agree or don't care about the effort thats needed and attempting to be completed.
Fully agree. Management/FAA, if they allow new rules to be implemented, not only does it cost them money, but its an admission to both the public as well as the industry that things were knowingly unsafe and have been for a while.
100% agree. I just hope that Congress can be convinced too, although their motivation seems to be the almighty dollar too. We all know that there are going to be more and more accidents/incidents that will point right back to this....heck, the B-1B accident I was the lead investigator on, that was one of the primary causal factors to the pilot error that occurred. Somehow, Congress needs to be convinced that the last 121 accident where this was a factor, needs to be the last.