Becoming a Pilot

DE727UPS said:
"Once again, I think I will aim for a degree in a more practical field. I'm hoping I can use some of the federal aid money to pay for my flight training while in school, but I am not sure how it will all work out. It's my understanding that typically flight instructors come and go, as most are working on their other ratings while training entry-level pilots, is this true? Can you give me an example of some schools that would subsidize training?"

You won't find federal money or grants to pay for flight training. You might find some of that for trade schools, CC's, or state colleges, depending on your financial situation, but it would be for trade school or education, not flight training. Flight training paid for isn't going to happen. I did a quick search and couldn't find any schools that subsidize advanced ratings but I swear I've seen places at this site that will pay for CFI ratings if you commit to working for them. Will leave it up to the experts for links as I don't watch it that close.
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I got $7,000 grant from the state of Alaska towards my flight training. So there are programs out there that can help you out, but you have to look.
 
killbilly said:
@OliverWinn

You're confronting an age-old problem here which, ultimately, boils down to a time-vs.-money problem. Most problems, really, are some variant of this.

What you have going for you is TIME. You're very young, and you can use this to your advantage. Whatever course you take, I would advise the longer-term/lower-debt/slower-paced version to get your ratings and pursue this. Given that kids are expensive, I'd also suggest this.

Get a medical done. Make sure you don't have any conditions that are disqualifying. Then get your Private Pilot Certificate. See if it's something you really want to do for a living. Every day. For a number of years.

Then - if the answer is yes and you can hold a medical, proceed.
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I would actually not advise this.

Opportunity cost comes into play here. If he works at Home Depot, or whatever, while he's getting his ratings, he will make those types of wages the entire time he's doing it. Realistically, that could take 5 or 6 years of unskilled labor to pay for his flight training with a kid, in this time, he's going to have to pay for things like day-care, baby clothes, rent on a place (you can't exactly rent only a room with a new baby, he's going to at least need a place with a separate bedroom so his girlfriend doesn't murder him) so on and so forth. He is not going to have the money to raise a kid at the same time he takes flying lessons because when the dollars get short, flying is going to be the first thing to go. Instead, I think he should finance his training, get it done as quickly as possible, and start working towards getting a good paying flying job ASAP.

Unless he's got a trade, or some other skilled labor up his sleeve, I would not recommend paying up front for his flight training. He needs to get generating income and experience as rapidly as possible so that he can provide for his new and growing family. Getting the medical is spot on - make sure you can fly for a living first, but then don't dick around - get your ratings. Now, I don't know @OliverWinn, but here's how I would do it if I were you based off of the meager information we have.

Go to ATPs or some other accelerated school. Yes it's a ridiculous amount of debt. Yes it's an accelerated fast paced program. Yes it's expensive. That's OK, it's expensive or time consuming no matter how you do it. If you go to ATPs, get everything through the MEI so that you can build some multi-time as an instructor.

Instruct at ATPs or whatever accelerated school you went to until you have 500 hours of flight time. At this point you are now qualified for VFR 135 jobs.

Fly in Alaska. It's difficult, dangerous, and anything but glamorous, but the money is there from the start, and you get decent blocks of time off if you go to the bush. Your choices will essentially be Yute Air, Ryan Air, or Era/Hageland/Rav'n (whatever they call themselves this week). All of these companies work on a rotation and they all have some sort of travel benes, in your two weeks off, you travel home to to where your girlfriend and kid reside, and enjoy a couple weeks of Dad time. You could be doing something like that 7 months to a year after starting at ATPs if you had the drive. These sorts of jobs start in the $45-$55k range. Yeah, you'll have loans, but if you are smart with how you finance your training, they won't be devastating, and you'll be doing better than if you worked unskilled labor. If you get the right type of loans, you can start taking online classes towards a degree at this point - this could potentially allow you to defer your loans while you're going to school. If you paid the interest on your loans at this point while deferring full payments, you could effectively postpone when you start paying back your loans until you have a job that could give your family the quality of life you'd like to give them.

If you like Alaska try to get into a Caravan on rotation up there, this may take 18 months, but you'll end up making $65-ish in the bush and it goes up from there. Otherwise, go fly freight at 1200 hours at AmeriFlight in Oregon.

At 3,000hrs (give or take) go fly medevac. This is what I do, and it's the best compromise I've found for a job in aviation. I have a wife and two sons. My wife doesn't need to work on my medevac salary, and I'm home pretty much all the time while I'm on call. It's freaking wonderful. I'm not flying a 737 for a living, but I'm home every night, they pay me well, and we are very comfortable. If I would have known this is what this is like, I would have tried to do this 4 years ago.

This plan takes 3 to 5 years to accomplish depending on a lot of things, and even longer if the economy decides to unhinge itself, but this is what I would do if I were in your shoes knowing what I know now. Kids are expensive, give yourself the tools you need to provide for them.
 
Roger Roger said:
(and the ability to write in mostly readable English) to be a great asset in the real world.
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This is incredibly true. The two most useful classes I took in college were Calc II and Technical writing. Calc II because it taught me how to study things that don't simply require memorization, technical writing because I learned how to function as an adult in an adult job.
 
knot4u said:
Having a kid at 19 seems like the result of poor decision making, perhaps aviation is not your strong suit.
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That's such a ridiculous statement. Even if he did make a mistake at 19, it doesn't say anything about how he would do in aviation. Hell if he marries a couple flight attendants and gets a few divorces down the road it'll put him on par with many major airline captains. I'm sure aviation isn't their strong suit either, right?

elev8 said:
Go to atps flight school, get the ratings, flight instruct, get a job at a regional. You'll be making a little money then. Get a degree from a local school or online in something completely different then aviation, while you work at the regional.
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I agree with everything but ATPs. Don't go into $60,000+ of instant debt for a $20/hr regional job that is still years away for you. As a current regional F/O I can tell you right now, if I had that much debt I don't know what I would do with it.

I suggest go the local flight school path. It'll be cheaper and you might make more connections while you're there, which could open many opportunities in the long run. OPs priorities with a 9month old are going to be incredibly different than what mine were at age 19, and going to a regional may not even be what he wants once he starts flying.
 
1. Get the non-aviation degree. You don't want to have to work for minimum wage or unskilled labor should you get furloughed or lose your medical.
2. Pay for your private license, part 61 on you're own. I paid for my private over the course of a year when I was 16/17. You may only be able to fly once a week but there are still ways to help you stay proficient. I still got mine in 43 hours despite only flying once a week.
3. Once you have a degree, or are close to it, in my opinion, the program at ATP flight schools would not be a bad option, and you can get loans for those programs. If you were able to pay out of pocket for college, you could come out the other side with just your aviation loan, about 60K if I remember. Not terrible.
4. Enjoy your kid, as I'm sure people have told you, they grow fast.

...and stay away from the DUI or MIP, the FAA isn't as forgiving as they once were.
 
ppragman said:
I would actually not advise this.

Opportunity cost comes into play here. If he works at Home Depot, or whatever, while he's getting his ratings, he will make those types of wages the entire time he's doing it. Realistically, that could take 5 or 6 years of unskilled labor to pay for his flight training with a kid, in this time, he's going to have to pay for things like day-care, baby clothes, rent on a place (you can't exactly rent only a room with a new baby, he's going to at least need a place with a separate bedroom so his girlfriend doesn't murder him) so on and so forth. He is not going to have the money to raise a kid at the same time he takes flying lessons because when the dollars get short, flying is going to be the first thing to go. Instead, I think he should finance his training, get it done as quickly as possible, and start working towards getting a good paying flying job ASAP.

Unless he's got a trade, or some other skilled labor up his sleeve, I would not recommend paying up front for his flight training. He needs to get generating income and experience as rapidly as possible so that he can provide for his new and growing family. Getting the medical is spot on - make sure you can fly for a living first, but then don't dick around - get your ratings. Now, I don't know @OliverWinn, but here's how I would do it if I were you based off of the meager information we have.

Go to ATPs or some other accelerated school. Yes it's a ridiculous amount of debt. Yes it's an accelerated fast paced program. Yes it's expensive. That's OK, it's expensive or time consuming no matter how you do it. If you go to ATPs, get everything through the MEI so that you can build some multi-time as an instructor.

Instruct at ATPs or whatever accelerated school you went to until you have 500 hours of flight time. At this point you are now qualified for VFR 135 jobs.

Fly in Alaska. It's difficult, dangerous, and anything but glamorous, but the money is there from the start, and you get decent blocks of time off if you go to the bush. Your choices will essentially be Yute Air, Ryan Air, or Era/Hageland/Rav'n (whatever they call themselves this week). All of these companies work on a rotation and they all have some sort of travel benes, in your two weeks off, you travel home to to where your girlfriend and kid reside, and enjoy a couple weeks of Dad time. You could be doing something like that 7 months to a year after starting at ATPs if you had the drive. These sorts of jobs start in the $45-$55k range. Yeah, you'll have loans, but if you are smart with how you finance your training, they won't be devastating, and you'll be doing better than if you worked unskilled labor. If you get the right type of loans, you can start taking online classes towards a degree at this point - this could potentially allow you to defer your loans while you're going to school. If you paid the interest on your loans at this point while deferring full payments, you could effectively postpone when you start paying back your loans until you have a job that could give your family the quality of life you'd like to give them.

If you like Alaska try to get into a Caravan on rotation up there, this may take 18 months, but you'll end up making $65-ish in the bush and it goes up from there. Otherwise, go fly freight at 1200 hours at AmeriFlight in Oregon.

At 3,000hrs (give or take) go fly medevac. This is what I do, and it's the best compromise I've found for a job in aviation. I have a wife and two sons. My wife doesn't need to work on my medevac salary, and I'm home pretty much all the time while I'm on call. It's freaking wonderful. I'm not flying a 737 for a living, but I'm home every night, they pay me well, and we are very comfortable. If I would have known this is what this is like, I would have tried to do this 4 years ago.

This plan takes 3 to 5 years to accomplish depending on a lot of things, and even longer if the economy decides to unhinge itself, but this is what I would do if I were in your shoes knowing what I know now. Kids are expensive, give yourself the tools you need to provide for them.
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You make some very good points. I'd be lying if I didn't say that I was SURE I wanted to be an airline pilot....always wanted to be a pilot, had the dream as a kid....the same story we see here on a regular basis.

I was SURE I wanted to be a professional pilot.....until I wasn't. And I was 34 when I started flying.

Here's the thing - and @OliverWinn - I apologize for talking about you now like you're not in the room, but this internet-thingy doesn't really allow for more normal protocols...

We don't know enough about the OP to know whether or not he's going to want to continue to be a pilot. There have been a lot of people who were sure they wanted to fly professionally until they started doing it and then realized they wanted to do something else. At 19, it's damn hard really know who you are and what you're all about - maybe I'm wrong about that as far as the OP is concerned, but that's a pretty general aspect of the age.

But there's no getting around this: The OP is 19, but also a father, and that weighs heavily on the choices he's going to make, because he has to take the conservative option. If he was without child and family, I would actually consider advocating the course you're suggesting, because he would have YEARS of earning potential and there is less at stake with the debt-load - he can live cheap and service that debt.

However - the point is sort of moot since he's looked at the SLM option and rejected it. I think that was a good move.

Your points about Alaska are spot-on - and again, if his family situation permits that, maybe it's the right thing. But if he looks at flying as a longer-term goal while he pursues an education/career path (that he would need anyway) it opens up the greatest number of OPTIONS to him, and when you're working variables, OPTIONS keep you from getting painted into a corner.

I dunno. I like the military idea for him, too. You don't have to have a pilot slot to have a good military career and the benefits that come from it.
 
OliverWinn said:
1: What route did you take to getting your ratings and how old were you when you started?
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I started at 22. My father, a 135 pilot, told me there were 2 ways to obtain a pilot's license. Either I got him a college degree - and he'd help me out any way he could; or I was on my own. I went the college way, I have a Computer Imaging Engineering degree. After my Junior year, he basically said "I see you're responsible enough, so lets get you started on your private". This was only if I stayed in school, which I did. Once I graduated I worked for 2 years to save some money and went to part 141 flight school. I got Instruments first, I got my Commercial when I was 27, and I payed for my Checkrides and Multi.

OliverWinn said:
2: How long did it take before you were flying as a full-time job?
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-1 Week. Seriously. A week or so before my Commercial checkride. I was in my apartment when the phone rang, it was this guy that had just bought a T182 and was looking for a pilot that flew San Antonio - Monterrey Del Norte every monday and back every friday. My parents live in Monterrey, I lived in San Antonio. I was referred to him by an uncle of mine. He allowed me to do some time in the 182 to get my High Performace sign off the week before my checkride, and went to work immediately after.

OliverWinn said:
3: What advice would you give me/how do you suggest I proceed with getting my ratings?
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  • Private, Instrument, Commercial, Multi, in that order. Instruments is the hardest, Multi is the most fun. Multis are aircraft that demand twice the respect, and you have it usually by the time you're done with commercial.
  • Whoever your instructor is, don't settle for a "nah its IMC lets postpone the flight". Your instructor should be capable of getting you VFR on Top so you can keep practicing whatever you're supposed to. If you're doing instruments, try to get as much actual as you can. Be on his rear end, try to squeeze as much time from him as you can. If you don't, you'll take longer to get your licenses, and housing costs are just as high as the flying hours themselves.
  • Learn to go around TStorms, so don´t be afraid to fly if there's a TStorm 20 miles from your field. Obviously don't fly if its less than 5 nm of where you're at. Don't take a "later" for an answer, be on your instructor's rear end if necessary.
  • Be ahead of your game. If you REALLY want to do this for a living, show it.
  • Keep on forums like this - IE hang around with more experienced pilots, learn from everywhere you can, from other's experiences or even aircraft accident reports or TV shows.
  • Don't be dared by other students, specially ones your age. The typical "Weather Brief?? what for? you're doing a 30 NM Hop". Or the "its just a small cloud, lets go in!!". Always respect the aircraft, and remember the rules are there for a reason.
  • Most importantly, remember, you're transporting lives and your job will be charging so or so amount of money for it. Lives are priceless, so remember to keep that in mind.
Hope this helps.
Take Care
 
OliverWinn said:
1: What route did you take to getting your ratings and how old were you when you started?
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I was 16 when I had my first official ( = logged) flying lesson, although I've been exposed to airplanes all my life. I planned on doing this for fun (it's the family business) and then I realized I was having more fun doing this than I was doing computing. I learned to fly on the side in college, and it was the best kind of hobby (a serious one).

(I do not have, nor would I want to have, an aviation science/aeronautics degree. My undergraduate studies are a bachelor's apiece in computer science and political science and I find them far more useful than I think an aeronautics degree would have been.)

2: How long did it take before you were flying as a full-time job?
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Your question needs definition.

I got my first full time job as a pilot about a year after I got my Commercial, which happened my senior year of college (life intervenes), but I was not actively seeking that employment as a pilot until that time.

It's taken almost exactly 5 years of aviation industry time (including three years at a regional airline, and 8ish months at another, unrelated regional airline) for me to get to the income level I had working for the State of California as an entry-level infosec cretin.

3: What advice would you give me/how do you suggest I proceed with getting my ratings?
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Crash no airplanes, don't speed, be careful with debt, don't hurry, don't fly when you are sick or fatigued, enjoy the ride, fly everything that you can get your hands on, your instrument skills may well save your life someday so take that rating extremely seriously, go get some aerobatic instruction, avoid SJS.
 
One other thing. If you ever run into a situation where you go "should I be doing this?" The answer is usually NO.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I know the origin, I'm just asking if it's going to be our new meme about how (we think?) pilot selection works, like Tier One, Disqualifiers, and things like that.
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Yes. Only I'm somewhat serious.
I think if you look at those three sentences as a whole, things are put in proper perspective. Replace sailing with what have you but I think that's about right on.
 
z987k said:
Yes. Only I'm somewhat serious.
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I'm not sure how I would evaluate the academic rigor of a sailing degree against that of an aeronautical science degree.

(I can tell you which one I would think is more fun, though.)
 
z987k said:
Exactly. And they're both worth the paper they are written on. So why not have fun?
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I can actually put a dollar value on my education, and it's worth more than the paper they're written on. (indeed, I just billed the clients for an amount that exceeds the value of the paper by several orders of magnitude, and that's only one of the things I studied.)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I can actually put a dollar value on my education, and it's worth more than the paper they're written on. (indeed, I just billed the clients for an amount that exceeds the value of the paper by several orders of magnitude, and that's only one of the things I studied.)
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Yes, but... you know, life maaaan! You have to live your life!

If you're not in this for the money, and if you're in aviation, you probably shouldn't be. You might as well have one hell of a good time.
 
z987k said:
Yes, but... you know, life maaaan! You have to live your life!

If you're not in this for the money, and if you're in aviation, you probably shouldn't be. You might as well have one hell of a good time.
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I do get satisfaction out of flying the airplane, which is apparently somewhat rare in the airlines nowadays.

And I would say I've had a hell of a good time too.

(And now, there's like, "real" money involved, not $22/hour. That said, enough is never enough on that front.)
 
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