Bank Angle In The Circuit (Pattern)

[ppragman]

Our check airmen train (and check) a return to the runway from 1000 AGL. As long as you remember to feather the prop, the greatest danger is overshooting.

We brief and practice this as well. I've read about the RCMP who made the turn at 800' and almost went off the end of the runway because they had too much energy. The PC-12 can do it, the 207 usually can't. I've always hated the idea that rules from one plane should be telegraphed to another, the PC-12 can easily make the turn, at 45° bank you come around quick and have lot's of room to spare.

 

[Hacker15e]

purpose as a CFI is to teach said student the ability to make decisions.

Just to clarify here, it is not possible to "teach" judgment in a classroom. Airmanship and judgment can only be learned as result of experience.

That being said, the learning/teaching environment can go a long way toward helping new pilots get that experience with as little risk as necessary (which is part of the point of the proposition in the OP). That environment cannot and will do nothing toward raising a good airman for precisely the reason you mention; it is guidance that doesn't have the benefit of being explained why it exists. A good instructor should, at the same time as helping their students to learn the FARs and other associated rules, explain the purpose of those rules so that the student understands rather than teaching blind adherence. Most of these rules are "written in blood" for very good reason.

The CFI's role in helping students become good decisionmakers (thereby "raising" good airmen) is by modeling good judgment and decisionmaking in their instructing, as well as offering "training wheel" guidance to decisions made by the student in flight.

 

[Hacker15e]

I've always hated the idea that rules from one plane should be telegraphed to another,

The problem being that many pilots only have experience in a small sliver of aircraft types, and we are all raised with prejudices that are particular to our own aircraft and types of flying we participate in.

I see this in the military, too, where pilots tend to think the rules, techniques, and procedures that they've been raised with and operated under in their own personal experience do/should apply to all other aircraft types/communities. This difference is most stark between the tactical and heavy flying communities, but even exists to a certain extent between the individual fighter types, etc.

Only through exposure to different aircraft and different types of flying is it really possible to be self-aware enough to understand that.

 

[z987k]

The problem being that many pilots only have experience in a small sliver of aircraft types, and we are all raised with prejudices that are particular to our own aircraft and types of flying we participate in.

I see this in the military, too, where pilots tend to think the rules, techniques, and procedures that they've been raised with and operated under in their own personal experience do/should apply to all other aircraft types/communities. This difference is most stark between the tactical and heavy flying communities, but even exists to a certain extent between the individual fighter types, etc.

Only through exposure to different aircraft and different types of flying is it really possible to be self-aware enough to understand that.

Which is why we have this meme. People in their tiny little bubble don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Hacker15e]

People in their tiny little bubble don't know what they're talking about.

People might know plenty about "their bubble" and be quite talented within it, but often don't have the SA or experience to know when that does and does not apply outside of it. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. The error is when people don't recognize that there even are differences, and that's the majority of what we see in this forum and elsewhere in aviation.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Which is why we have this meme. People in their tiny little bubble don't know what they're talking about.

Yeah, well. Goose isn't around to voice his opinion, is he?