Bangor Maine - private jet w/8 crash

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't consider NetJets or Flexjet corporate. They're for all intents and purposes a non scheduled airline using business jets. Their training, scheduling, dispatch etc has a whole lot more in common with 121 than it does with the part 91 business jet flying I did for a Fortune 5 company (ie the Wild West)

Trying to characterize a mishap as something that just happens to business jet pilots is a mistake because business aviation isn't a monolith. There's everything from two pilot operators with no standardization whatsoever, to 135 operators, to mammoth 91K operators with standardization and training that eclipses some of the airlines I've worked for.

 

[WacoFan]

I don't consider NetJets or Flexjet corporate. They're for all intents and purposes a non scheduled airline using business jets. Their training, scheduling, dispatch etc has a whole lot more in common with 121 than it does with the part 91 business jet flying I did for a Fortune 5 company (ie the Wild West)

Trying to characterize a mishap as something that just happens to business jet pilots is a mistake because business aviation isn't a monolith. There's everything from two pilot operators with no standardization whatsoever, to 135 operators, to mammoth 91K operators with standardization and training that eclipses some of the airlines I've worked for.

Can you do a comparison of the Fortune 5 operation and USAir and SWA? I was always kind of curious about that.

 

[knot4u]

Can you do a comparison of the Fortune 5 operation and USAir and SWA? I was always kind of curious about that.

I can speak to the MX side of a very, very high end pt 91 operation (a lifelong friend has worked for these people for decades at this point). They have three airplanes and are always in the first group of customers with early serial numbers when a new plane starts operations. The MX guys go to initial (normally a month long course at the manufacturers facility) and then go to "recurrent" training about every six months for a week or two. Every single aspect of the MX operation is scrutinized down to the final details. For example, these are large cabin business jets and the jacks used to lift them get sent back to Tronair for recertification and overhaul every couple of years, while they're gone a rental set of jacks is provided by Tronair just in case they need them. When an airplane goes back to the manufacturer for a big inspection one of their mechanics is always onsite (although they do rotate the schedule so one mechanic will only be there for a week or so at a time). The flight crews are also subject to this sort of training and scrutiny but I don't know the details so I can't comment. It costs an enormous amount of money without ever flying but the combined net worth of the principles is probably a trillion dollars so it's a drop in the bucket relatively speaking.

 

[WacoFan]

I can speak to the MX side of a very, very high end pt 91 operation (a lifelong friend has worked for these people for decades at this point). They have three airplanes and are always in the first group of customers with early serial numbers when a new plane starts operations. The MX guys go to initial (normally a month long course at the manufacturers facility) and then go to "recurrent" training about every six months for a week or two. Every single aspect of the MX operation is scrutinized down to the final details. For example, these are large cabin business jets and the jacks used to lift them get sent back to Tronair for recertification and overhaul every couple of years, while they're gone a rental set of jacks is provided by Tronair just in case they need them. When an airplane goes back to the manufacturer for a big inspection one of their mechanics is always onsite (although they do rotate the schedule so one mechanic will only be there for a week or so at a time). The flight crews are also subject to this sort of training and scrutiny but I don't know the details so I can't comment. It costs an enormous amount of money without ever flying but the combined net worth of the principles is probably a trillion dollars so it's a drop in the bucket relatively speaking.

Thank you

 

[knot4u]

Thank you

That's an example on one end of the spectrum of pt 91 jet operations, back when I was a traveling mechanic I've also seen the other end and it isn't pretty. Someone said something I heard a long time ago that still rings true, if you go into a town/city and you want to find the criminals and or desperate folks go to the airport.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Can you do a comparison of the Fortune 5 operation and USAir and SWA? I was always kind of curious about that.

In what regard? Schedule/ quality of life? Training and standardization?

It's interesting having worked at so many shops I'm able to look at them all more critically without falling victim to the kool aid and thinking "we are the best"

I haven't always been that way, just wish I had that clarity when I was younger

 

[WacoFan]

In what regard? Schedule/ quality of life? Training and standardization?

It's interesting having worked at so many shops I'm able to look at them all more critically without falling victim to the kool aid and thinking "we are the best"

I haven't always been that way, just wish I had that clarity when I was younger

All of the above or anything you'd like to share.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Okay.

In terms of 121 quality of life, the best schedule flexibility I ever had was at USAir. The ability to trip improve, split trips whenever you passed through domicile, drop trips for pay when they touch training or vacation were all just the best of all worlds.

Making the most money goes hands down to Southwest. Picking up out of domicile, flying up to FAR limits, flying during vacation. Lots of opportunities to fly more - but it's tougher to trade down or get rid of flying.

No schedule flexibility at WM, but you also didn't fly every day. It was kind of like being on reserve for your entire career with no work rules. It was great until we had a kid and needed a little schedule flexibility. If airline flying is 99% flying and 1% BS -- I feel like (at least for me) corporate was 1% flying and 99% BS.

Best training of the 3 was WM. Flight safety recurrent every six months. Never knew the airplane and its systems better over the long haul as I did when I was there.

Best initial training was USAir. The dug deep into the systems and spent time on the FMS. Granted that was a different era of training (pre AQP) but I just felt like you built the airplane from scratch in initial and really knew it well.

Standardization was best at USAir, Southwest is second except for during deicing, where SWA just has a superior methodology.

I'd like to see autoland at WN. Hopefully before I retire.

Flying corporate had the least standardization but due to the size of the department we generally knew what everyone's pet peeves were. I did my best to incorporate what I learned from 121 into the flying I did in corporate flying. Without dispatchers pilots had wide latitude to choose alternates and fuel loads. Sometimes it was easier than others to get the job done given the constraints of the airplane. You bend the rules from time to time, until you realize you're hanging your ATP out there every time you do.

All that said, my first love and the job I miss the most is USAir. WN is a close second.

Part 91 corporate was great during the lost decade. Best post 9/11 job I could've hoped for considering many of my friends were leaving aviation or working for dirtbag operators around the world. My only regret was that I should've gone back to the airline when I had the opportunity. With a young baby at home and facing an untenable commute, I made a different choice and it turned out to be the wrong choice.

Hope that answers some of your questions.