Bangor Maine - private jet w/8 crash

adk said:
I’m a nobody here, but personally I find most of your aviation related stories to be really interesting and think it can be really helpful to get an A&P’s perspective of some of the topics discussed here. I am less of a fan of the posts where you and a handful of others choose to get combative, but please don’t think that many of us are writing off your extensive experience in this industry. I have learned a lot from you posting bits and pieces of your career.

Sorry for the thread jack y’all
Click to expand...
Did you know I'm a pilot? I just don't make a living from it, it's more of a hobby.
 
I don’t think I did! Most pilot stories just don’t stand out too much here. Nobody remembers my pilot war stories here either lol
 
adk said:
I’m a nobody here, but personally I find most of your aviation related stories to be really interesting and think it can be really helpful to get an A&P’s perspective of some of the topics discussed here. I am less of a fan of the posts where you and a handful of others choose to get combative, but please don’t think that many of us are writing off your extensive experience in this industry. I have learned a lot from you posting bits and pieces of your career.

Sorry for the thread jack y’all
Click to expand...
People who are primarily A&P's or IA's but also fly are a wealth of good info.
 
MikeD said:
117s were always kept in hangars. No deicing preflight as they wouldn’t be flown. If airborne and running into icing, the biggest danger was ice forming in the grates of the intake covers known as the ice cube trays, as that’s what they resembled. To deice those (there was no anti-ice heating or such), you waited until an icing caution light came on and then activated the glycol wiper system. Which was a large car windshield wiper recessed into the bottom of the engine intakes at the bottom of the ice cube tray, and as it wiped across the tray, it sprayed a type 1 style fluid from ports along the wiper across the surface of the intake tray on one sweep, and wiped it away at the return sweep. That’s all there was, no other deice or anti-ice on any other the aerodynamic surfaces.

A-10s, we had some parked outside due to lack of shelters for all. And they’d be a spare if needed of one of the planes in the shelters broke prior to taxi, so they had to be kept deiced.

But it was the northern tier bomber bases that had the biggest work keeping the outside-parked bombers and tankers free of ice and within holdover times, as when the alert horn went off, whether real or practice, the jet had to be airborne from cold start, in 5 mins, after an all-engines start using starter cartridges. No time to taxi to a deice pad.
Click to expand...
I knew a guy whose uncle worked on B-36s in some god forsaken place outside in the weather. There were no hangars, but there was a dozen Peacemakers to tend to. I know that was not a supercritical wing but I can't imagine trying to operate somewhere in Alaska during a blizzard. I'm sure human factors are part of military life these days but the Cold War time period seems as cruel to the support folks on both sides equally.
 
Kingairer said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip5l8WIkcO0



Lots of clues here. Good video. Regardless of fault or outcomes, I really feel for the de-ice crews and how this will affect them for the rest of their life.
Wonder what that Allegiant pilot saw or wanted to talk about?
Click to expand...


I agree. From the standpoint of humanity and just being traumatized by being the last person to see a plane leave, that's tough. That being said, if it turns out those guys overstayed their welcome/HOT, not much the deice crew could have done differently or better. Obviously there is the possibility of a misapplication of fluid, but that would be pretty surprising from an airport that does this a lot.
 
Also, I don’t know if they have apps or just the old charts, but those asterisks about night time/vis snowfall intensity do a lot of heavy lifting. Something that on a dark night, getting ready for a crossing, could be easily forgotten or missed. Diffference between moderate and light snow being very significant.
 
adk said:
I don’t think I did! Most pilot stories just don’t stand out too much here. Nobody remembers my pilot war stories here either lol
Click to expand...
Eh…. A good mechanic doesn’t go off on a weird personal attack rant when someone who’s spent 2 years working all nighters on a type of airplane corrects them about that type of airplane… they have some humility and admit that they learned something.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I doubt any of that is in official evidence yet. But I'll be the witch in church and say that they pretty obviously tried to take off in a hard-wing jet with ice and/or "stuff" accruing to the wing, got airborne, stalled, flipped over, and hit the ground. Put me in the stocks and throw rotten vegetables at me if I'm wrong, but I'm not.
Click to expand...
What if the flaps were up too? Pics seem to suggest that could have also been the case. I’m a current 121 weenie or whatever CC says but I’m a former 91/135 Gulfstream driver. Lots of friends in the CL world and most would agree with your assessment as well. The lack of awareness and experience in that world around these conditions can be… concerning to say the least
 
Honestly, could be anything. Could have been like that Air Surwya (sp?) CRJ where it was a severe over rotation rate. That could do it too if it had any hint of contamination. Or maybe a gust that hit at the wrong time and pushed a winglet into the pavement.


Not sure. Sad all around. :(


The real scary part is this isn’t like some Air Florida case where they were sitting out there for hours. These guys literally got type I and IV, and tried to takeoff fairly “immediately.” I mean, from the pad to runway, checklists, etc, that’s gonna add a little bit of time. But no unreasonable / undue delay. It was just type IV and go.



…which is why gut feeling still says there might be more to this story. Will be interesting to see the final report.
 
Last edited:
sweeps said:
What if the flaps were up too? Pics seem to suggest that could have also been the case. I’m a current 121 weenie or whatever CC says but I’m a former 91/135 Gulfstream driver. Lots of friends in the CL world and most would agree with your assessment as well. The lack of awareness and experience in that world around these conditions can be… concerning to say the least
Click to expand...
I can't imagine the flaps not at 20°. The Challengers have a configuration warning that includes brakes, flaps, autopilot, spoilers, and stab trim.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Honestly, could be anything. Could have been like that Air Surwya (sp?) CRJ where it was a severe over rotation rate. That could do it too if it had any hint of contamination. Or maybe a gust that hit at the wrong time and pushed a winglet into the pavement.


Not sure. Sad all around. :(


The real scary part is this isn’t like some Air Florida case where they were sitting out there for hours. These guys literally got type I and IV, and tried to takeoff fairly “immediately.” I mean, from the pad to runway, checklists, etc, that’s gonna add a little bit of time. But no unreasonable / undue delay. It was just type IV and go.



…which is why gut feeling still says there might be more to this story. Will be interesting to see the final report.
Click to expand...

You are so incredibly clueless it’s unbelievable.

They took at least 15 minutes from first application of type 4 to take off,

With a holdover time of 5-7 minutes.

Do the math.
 
Cessnaflyer said:
I can't imagine the flaps not at 20°. The Challengers have a configuration warning that includes brakes, flaps, autopilot, spoilers, and stab trim.
Click to expand...
Configuration warnings depend on a lot of inputs (and those inputs are as likely to fail as any other input) and should be considered as a back up to remind you if you forgot something, and because they can fail it's still up to you. The G-IV that ran off the runway with the gust lock on a few years ago comes to mind. I'm not trying to feed into a conspiracy about this airplane not being correctly configured for take off, I'm just saying it's the pilots job to never hear the warning because everything is properly configured when the levers go to full power.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top