Back at School!!


Well-Known Member
Hey everyone - I'm back!! I'm sitting in a hotel room taking a break from memorizing limitations and boxed items and told you I would write about my training when I finally got to 604 school so here it is.....

We finally got a deal done on a Challenger 604 - it's a 1999 model with about 1400 hours on it. Real nice airplane. It was formally owned by a Swiss company so it had the Swiss cross on the tail - it was painted over before we took delivery so now the airplane just has a big red square on the tail. Anyway - since we bought the airplane from Bombardier Resale Group(Bombardier's used airplane lot) we received several free training slots that we had to use at either the Montreal or DFW training centers. It took me all of about .15 seconds to decide 3 weeks in Montreal in December isn't my idea of a good time so I packed my bags for DFW!

I arrived late Sunday evening after a rather significant delay off the gate in CVG - someon checked a bag on the flight and then didn't board so under the new rules they had to search the cargo hold until they found that one bag and deplane it before we could depart. We finally pushed about 35 minutes late and it then took the Delta Mad Dog crew another 2 hours and 40 minutes to get to DFW(Doug - you guys are aware that those things are capable of going faster than .67 right????) Anyway - spending over 3 hours on an MD90 with every single seat filled is certainly not the funnest thing I've ever done. Apparently I wasn't the only one as there was almost a fight in the first class cabin as we were deplaneing! It took me a little over an hour and half to get off the airplane, find my bags, find the rental car plaza, get my car and get to my hotel! Whew what a day!

Class started bright and early at 0800 Monday morning. This is a little change of pace for me since we usually train with FLight Safety. I found the training facility with no major problems and what a facility it is! The facility is actually a CAE/Simuflite facility that houses something like 30 sims(everything from a Citation II to a BBJ). Bombardier has their own 'wing' of the building that houses their own facility including 4 Learjet sims, the 604 sim, and space for the new Challenger 300(nee' Continental) sim when it arrives. Absolutley magnificent facility.

The 604 initial pilot trianing program is designed to be 21 days in length. I am fortunate in that I'm the only one in the class which allows us to move ahead of schedule so hopefully we're going to be able to cut off about 7 days of the program. The 604 is virtually identical to the CRJ that I flew so most of it was review and we flew through the systems.

Day one was a review of the aicraft general, audio/visual warning system, electrical system, and flight instruments. All in all a pretty simple day. It's a complex aircraft but fairly straight forward systems that make sense if you just think about it a little.

Day Two(today) started off with the APU, engines and thrust reversers, fuel system, and pneumatics.

We also were able to get into the sim today for the first time. It was supposed to be a 'FTD - Flight Training Device' session(basically a sim session with the motion turned off) to get familiar with the cockpit and the prestart checklists. Again everything was so similar to the CRJ we zipped right thru the checks and got the engines started in about 30 minutes so we took off and flew around a little including a short trip from JFK over to White Plains. Even though my airplane doesn't have these options the sim is equipped with a heads up guidance system, auto throttles, and Performance Plus FMS software(more about this later) - I'm going to have some cool toys to play with during training. The auto throttles are great - just roll onto the runway and hit a button - they run themselves up to takeoff thrust and you literally dont have to touch the throttles again until you flare. At HPN we flew a visual to Rwy 34 - we programmed the visual approach into the FMS with all of the Vertical Nav(VNAV) info. Basically all I had to do was hit the 'Approach' button on the autopilot panel and the airplane set it's self up on a 5 mile final to Rwy 34 and flew right down to the runway - all I had to do was put the gear and flaps down and disengage the autopilot at 80 feet to flare. Technology is absolutley amazing.

Well I'm going to get off of here and do some studying - let the questions fly - I'll check in every day or two and answer any thing I can.

Happy flying - Jason
Sorry it's been a whole but needless to say this past week has been pretty busy. Weds, Thurs, and Friday we finished up the systems review with powerplants, anti-ice, hydraulics, flight controls etc etc. We also reviewed performance - in larger aircraft and jets figuring out the max takeoff weight isn't as simple as it may seem. There are several different factors that can be limiting such as runway limits, climb requirements, obstacle clearence requirements, etc..

Saturday was a pretty interesting day - we were in the simulator doing a 'Flight Training Device' session so weren't actually on motion but in the middle of our session the sim all of the sudden went black!! Turns out they had a transformer blow out and it essentially killed all 36 of the sims in the building. Those sims that were actually up and 'flying' were stuck in that position and the crews had to climb down the rope escape ladder! In all of my life I never thought I would have to 'emer egress' a sim but I guess it does happen.

We started the first real sim ssession today. Pretty much just normal procedures such as take off and landings, GPS/FMS approaches, emergency descents, steep turns, stalls, unusual attitudes and a few more things.

Tomorrow more approaches, ILS, LOC, VOR, circling, engine out work, V1 cuts, circle approach into Aspen.

I need to get back to studying - take care everyone.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Jason, very interesting stuff.
Few questions for you...

- Can you do the entire type rating in the FSI Sim, or is part of the training conducted in the aircraft?

- Whats the MTOW of the 604?

- What cruising Mach number will you generally be flying at, and at what altitudes? (Is the ceiling 45,000' like many other biz jets?)

- What range can you achieve with a heavy payload of pax/baggage on board?

Thanks for the info, keep the stories coming

OK - here are the answers -

1) Yes and No - it just depends. As a general answer yes you can do the entire type rating in a level C or D simulator - the sim I was using was level D. There are some stipulations though - I can't remember exactly what they are but basically I believe if it's your first type rating you can't unless you have experience in that particular type OR you have a certain number of hours in turbo jets, etc.. When I went for my first type rating in the King Air back in 1998 I had 2 options - I could do what the call the 85/15 check - 85% of the checkride in the sim, 15% in the actual airplane OR have an 'SOE' or Supervised Operating Experience - limitation on my type ratung saying that before acting as PIC I had to have 25 hours as PIC under the supervision of another Captain.

2) The maximum certified take off weight is 48,200 pounds. It can be further limited by a number of factors but it will never be more than 48,200 pounds.

3) The ceiling of the 604 is only 41,000 unlike most other modern business jets. The 604 is basically a 30 year old airfram with modern engines and avionics in it - the newer Bombardier products are certified to a higher altitude. At a 'typical' mission weight we'll cruise at either 37,000 or 39,000 feet and .80 to .82 mach but of course that is all highly dependant on weight, temperature, etc.

4) Depnds on what you consider a heavy load - we can take 10 pax(full boat in our airplane) baggage for 3 or 4 days and still take enough fuel to fly for 7 to 7.5 hours - in a no wind situation that would be around 3,000 miles+ at a max cruise speed power setting.

Thanks Jason! Sounds like a pretty versatile aircraft, and a comfortable one

How much runway would you expect to use at MTOW? (At ISA)

Look forward to any other info about life as a bizjet pilot you can share.

I don't have the QRH available to me right now so I'll have to look it up tomorrow and get back to ya' but off the top of my head my best guess would be around 6,000 MTOW ISA at sea level. I'll check on it for ya

As far as sharing info about the bizjet life - not sure what you're looking for but ask any questions you want and I'll try and answer and them.

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I'd really be interested in how you do the circle-to-land into Aspen. I tried this approach four times in FS2002 in a CRJ and couldn't get the aircraft down fast enough, slow enough, to land, even with idle thrust and full spoilers. I'd love to hear how you guys actually do it.
Well without looking at the ASE approach charts I don't remember the names of the fixes but basically you MUST be fully configured before the final approach fix meaning flaps 45, gear down, and speed at VRef +/- 0 - over the field you start a very aggressive turn to the downwind and must also start an aggressive descent(this is where the VNAV snowflake is very helpful if you can get the FMS set up in time). There are legal limitations on the use of spoilers and flaps in early CRJ's and altitude limitations on the use of spoilers in all CRJ's(ie not permitted below a certain altitude) but sometimes you have to do what ya' have to do. I personally would carry a little engine power with spoilers extended - high tight approach into ASE with the engines unspooled is a bad bad thing - as quick as the GE's spool I wouldn't want to wait for them if I had to go around.

Something else to consider legally is the circling speeds - I believe if you look at the circling mins Category D circles are not authorized. I don't think you can circle the RJ CAT C. The 604 is right on the edge.

As Eagle pointed out the missed approach procedure sucks almost as bad as the approach itsself. If I had the choice to fly the missed or circle to the runway - it would be a toss-up - I consider both to be emergency escape manuevers in the 604. Company policy is that we don't go into ASE IMC - if it isn't VFR we don't go period. If you don't see the runway prior to crossing the final approach fix you have a decision to make and if I'm making it we're going back to Denver.
Doesn't the YD disengage after flaps go past 30 in the CL-600's? That would be quite a ride in the mountains with maneuvers like that (winds, turbulence, etc.) sans YD. Ensure pax with strong stomachs sit in back!
Nope. No such limitation in any of the Challenger series jets(including the CRJ's). The yaw dampers(plural) get turned on in the 'Cockpit Setup' checklist and you never touch them again.

Really? Because this was in an NBAA Air Mail not too long ago:

Here's one for you. Have you ever wondered why the airplane seems to get
harder to fly and wallow around more in turbulence on short final? We
learned that the yaw-damper disconnects when full flaps are selected.
Only airplane I've ever flown that does that..

Dennis Rhein

CL600/601, GIV
Available for Contract 91/135
or Full time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I was thinking a circling approach into Aspen with configuration at the FAF would be fairly interesting.
We disconnected the yawdampers in the Beech 1900, but I couldn't imagine the yaw dampers being turned off on an aircraft with swept wings.

Swept-wing aircraft are highly susceptible to dutch rolls and I couldn't imagine a manufacturer risking an aircraft entering dutch rolls on final approach at a low altitude.

On the -88/-90, the yaw damper is always active as far as aI kow, but we have 'parallel rudder' at low altitudes where you can feel the yaw damper computers rudder inputs thru the rudder pedals.
Well all I can say is that he is incorrect or not talking about the Challenger. I flew a 601 that had a habit of both yaw dampers kicking off during the approach when it got a little windy but it was a system abnormality - not a design feature. If this dude's yam damper is kicking off then there is a problem with the system.

I really couldn't believe it, but I figured it was true.

In our 737 sim we used YD down to touchdown, unless the crosswind is very stiff, then we disengage for better control. Would you heavy drivers do the same?

I know in the SF-340 YD disconnects when the autopilot is disengaged, so the crew must turn it back on immediately. At around 200 feet the YD would be disconnected for landing.
On the 737 we left the yaw damper on. I think the only time we'd turn it off is if a abnormal procedures checklist called for it.

But I really don't see a reason why you'd turn it off during crosswind landings. Plus, considering that you're going to be using a liberal amount of rudder deflection to straighten out the nose in the transition to flare, I'd presume that you'd want to have the yaw damper computer assisting control because swept-wing aircraft can sometimes do "interesting" things when cross controlled during a crosswind landing.

Interesting thing about the 737, you can almost land one without taking out the crab because the main gear "caster" to a certain degree.
Definatley - stiff crosswinds - especially gusty crosswinds - is NOT the time to be turning off the yaw damps - especially in swept wing jets.

I think a lot of folks are trying to apply straight wing turboprops with swept wing jets.

In the Beech 1900D, the yaw damper was a convenience and a passenger comfort item. If the YD was MEL'd (broken), it wasn't that big of a deal.

However, when talking about YD's in concert with swept wing jets, it's a controllability issue. If your yaw damper is inoperative, there is an entirely different set of circumstances that you have to consider. In fact, the YD on the -88/-90 is selected on and never selected off unless an abnormal procedure calls for de-activating it.

Now if I disengaged the YD in a sharp/strong crosswind, I can almost assure that once I added rudder to straighten out the nose during the flare, that it's going to be a pretty wild right. Once you start deflecting the rudder pedal in a swept wing jet, all bets are off when it comes to the behavior of the aircraft.

When I was going to simulator trainng in the 737, I hand flew an ILS without a YD and I ran into a problem with dutch rolls after a while. Maybe it's just me!