Autopilot Disconnection

PCL_128 said:
If the Captain says you fly with the autopilot, you fly with the autopilot. Are you saying that you'd disregard the Captain's authority?
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If the skipper says toss the autopilot on, I'll probably toss the autopilot on and discuss things later, but if you want to hear a story about "captains authority" send me a PM and I've got a story for ya. The skipper commanding the FO how to fly their leg when you're down at 100' AGL is *probably* a bad idea, and probably says something about the guy being a little bit too much of a control freak and can actually put the safety of the flight in jeopardy.
 
jtrain609 said:
It's really hard to try to describe the pervasive attitude that exist in that community. I mean you spend your time flying into the same airports, in the same weather as the 121 guys, but with crappy equipment, no radar, no support network and you do it by yourself in aircraft that, in some cases, shouldn't be flown by one person. You start to say to yourself, "Well #### man, I can do all the same stuff the 121 guys do with two people by myself! Hand fly the entire flight in the crap while dodging thunderstorms, hand fly the approach, hand fly the missed and do it all while drinking my coffee, without swallowing my chew and I'll STILL block in 3 minutes ahead of schedule! If these guys think they need an AUTOPILOT then they're crappy pilots!" Remember there are guys out there doing that stuff, single pilot, in Beech 1900's and Metroliners.
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What you're describing sounds like a very dangerous attitude, and one that just about every CRM program in the industry advises against. Maybe my formerly high opinion of 135 pilots was misplaced.
 
Why would you call it dangerous? They don't have autopilots, so they've gotta figure out how to get the operation done.

Truth be told, Amflight has lost most of it's aircraft recently (in the last 5 years or so I'd say) due to CFIT and running into mountains because the pilots are half asleep. That's probably the most dangerous part about the gig. It's not hand flying missed approaches in Metroliners.
 
jtrain609 said:
If the skipper says toss the autopilot on, I'll probably toss the autopilot on and discuss things later, but if you want to hear a story about "captains authority" send me a PM and I've got a story for ya. The skipper commanding the FO how to fly their leg when you're down at 100' AGL is *probably* a bad idea, and probably says something about the guy being a little bit too much of a control freak and can actually put the safety of the flight in jeopardy.
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If you have a Captain that does that, simply tell him that you'd prefer him/her to fly every leg. They'll get the message quick.

When a Captain has an authority issue, I let them be totally in charge. Want me to start the APU? You're gonna have to tell me. I'm not gonna do squat until you tell me to. Oh,and none of this "approaching 8S, going to A26". Nope, I'm gonna wait until you've got the plane stopped ON the spot before I call.

Life will be incredibly difficult for you.

I don't NEED this job - I do it because I love it, and no other reason.
 
PCL_128 said:
What you're describing sounds like a very dangerous attitude, and one that just about every CRM program in the industry advises against. Maybe my formerly high opinion of 135 pilots was misplaced.
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May have been. I won't lose any sleep.
 
jtrain609 said:
If the skipper says toss the autopilot on, I'll probably toss the autopilot on and discuss things later, but if you want to hear a story about "captains authority" send me a PM and I've got a story for ya. The skipper commanding the FO how to fly their leg when you're down at 100' AGL is *probably* a bad idea, and probably says something about the guy being a little bit too much of a control freak and can actually put the safety of the flight in jeopardy.
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Sure, send the PM. I love a good story. :)


I agree about the CA barking orders about how to fly the airplane at 100 agl is definitely a bad idea, and probably quite dangerous. Certainly not something I would do. However, when you upgrade, you'll find that having to take the controls at 100 agl actually happens occasionally. You don't tell them how to fly the plane, you just say "my controls." You'd be amazed how much some of these guys can screw up an approach in so short of a time span. They can be perfectly lined up at 200 ft, and 100 ft later they're about to land in the grass. Part of the "fun" of being a regional CA. ;)
 
I'm about to head off to lunch, but I'll send it out to ya this afternoon.

And I know that those things happen to captains, but remember back to your days of being an FO and flying with horrible captains who you were convinced were going to kill you. I've seen things swing both ways! I've actually had some excellent and extremely competent captains do a few dumb things, which is why we're there to check each other.
 
jtrain609 said:
Why would you call it dangerous? They don't have autopilots, so they've gotta figure out how to get the operation done.
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Sorry, should have been clearer. I don't think it's dangerous in that environment. As you say, you figure out how to get the operation done in whatever set of circumstances you find yourself. If you're flying single pilot without an AP, then you operate as safely as possible in that environment. What I find dangerous is carrying that same philosophy over to the multi-crewmember 121 environment and feeling that you're "above" the automation that is available to you. You should adapt to your environment. Trying to fly 121 just as you did 135 doesn't make sense.
 
jtrain609 said:
but remember back to your days of being an FO and flying with horrible captains who you were convinced were going to kill you. I've seen things swing both ways! I've actually had some excellent and extremely competent captains do a few dumb things, which is why we're there to check each other.
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Very true.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
If you have a Captain that does that, simply tell him that you'd prefer him/her to fly every leg. They'll get the message quick.
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LOL. Yeah, give that a try. We had an FO try that at PCL. The Captain told him "the FOM Duties and Responsibilities section says that you're to 'assist the Captain in the operation of the aircraft.' If I need you to fly every other leg, and you refuse to, then we can certainly go talk to the Chief Pilot about that. Whadya say?" Needless to say, the FO flew every other leg.
 
I wonder if there's a formula that will predict when a thread goes from valid to naval contemplation... Hmm... I'm going to have to rap to my mathematician friends about this one.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I wonder if there's a formula that will predict when a thread goes from valid to naval contemplation... Hmm... I'm going to have to rap to my mathematician friends about this one.
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It appears the odds are good.

Belly-button.jpg


Contemplate that. Then, and only then, may you respond to this thread.
 
PCL_128 said:
Sorry, should have been clearer. I don't think it's dangerous in that environment. As you say, you figure out how to get the operation done in whatever set of circumstances you find yourself. If you're flying single pilot without an AP, then you operate as safely as possible in that environment. What I find dangerous is carrying that same philosophy over to the multi-crewmember 121 environment and feeling that you're "above" the automation that is available to you. You should adapt to your environment. Trying to fly 121 just as you did 135 doesn't make sense.
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Hmm. Well I guess I may be a dangerous cowboy too then. I'm not prior 135 (unless you count KC135) but I happen to handfly approaches AND missed approaches in the mighty Saab. Why do I do that? Because our AP/FD system is a huge POS that is borderline useless in conditons worse than smooth air and light winds. I've watched it fly many a time and I'm not convinced that when it really counts I can rely on it. Matter of fact the one time I tried it kicked itself off at around 500' leaving me to fly the approach anyway. I advocate hand flying, at the very least once every now and then in real wx to keep the skills. Otherwise, what are you gonna do when the AP is MELed? Divert?
 
In the ATR on a missed approach as soon as the PF says "Gear up,heading,lo bank" the PM becomes busier than a one armed sailor. They are responsible for navigating the missed, radios, and tuning your heading bug, IAS mode, and VS mode if the PF is hand flying. You kinda feel bad as the PF. At 1000 ft AFE Im throwing the autopilot on. It reduces the workload drastically.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Hmm. Well I guess I may be a dangerous cowboy too then. I'm not prior 135 (unless you count KC135) but I happen to handfly approaches AND missed approaches in the mighty Saab. Why do I do that? Because our AP/FD system is a huge POS that is borderline useless in conditons worse than smooth air and light winds. I've watched it fly many a time and I'm not convinced that when it really counts I can rely on it. Matter of fact the one time I tried it kicked itself off at around 500' leaving me to fly the approach anyway. I advocate hand flying, at the very least once every now and then in real wx to keep the skills. Otherwise, what are you gonna do when the AP is MELed? Divert?
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I'm not familiar with the Saab, but if its AP is as useless as you say, then you'd be right to hand fly the approach. Again, being a good pilot is about adapting the situation you're presented with. If your situation involves a crappy AP that would actually increase the work load or decrease safety, then you obviously shouldn't use the AP. But in an RJ, where the AP performs practically flawlessly and can fly the missed with you not touching a single thing other than the throttles, then increasing the workload by hand flying degrades safety.

I advocate hand flying, also, but only in decent weather conditions.
 
mikecweb said:
Autopilots Rock!
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I liked the post better before...it was right.

-mini

*edit to add*
Do you RJ/ATR/general 121 drivers have a policy in the manual requiring you to program the box and use the flight director for everything? I'm not asking to be a smart-arse, I'm just trying to understand why everyone says the PNF is so busy programing the computer when you should be able to fly of of raw data at this level. If it's a manual/ops thing, I understand. If it's just pilots needing the automation...I don't get it. Not that automation isn't nice...it certainly is. Does it help? Absolutely. But to say that it's dangerous to hand fly to minimums and missed approaches and raw data...it just doesn't add up to me.
 
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