# Attitude Indicator PA28

#### pilot4higher

##### Well-Known Member
Getting back into a cadet after some time in other pipers I'm left with a question. The markings on the attitude indicator are basic in pitch. I believe two up two down. Are they 10deg and 20deg or 5deg and 10 deg. No intermediate markings in between. According to horizon ref and Vx, Vy 5 and 10 deg sounds right, but 10 and 20 degrees makes more sense. ?????

Should be 10 and 20 degrees. Our pipers have little five degree dashes in between the large dashes though.

thats what I would think. It's in a PA28-161 cadet. I'm looking for a vy 6deg and vx 10deg and wondering why it's not quite right. You think to yourself the possibility of a 20 deg pitch in a cadet? It might be 5 and 10 deg marks. The jury is still out.

Vy in our 140's is about 9 degrees. Maybe that is your problem

Anyway what kind of attitude indicator is it? Ours were made for beachcraft.

thats what I would think. It's in a PA28-161 cadet. I'm looking for a vy 6deg and vx 10deg and wondering why it's not quite right. You think to yourself the possibility of a 20 deg pitch in a cadet? It might be 5 and 10 deg marks. The jury is still out.

You may be confusing climb angle with pitch angle. Using some guestimates regarding Vy and Vx performance, say 700 fpm at 75 knots for Vy and 500 fpm at 60 knots for Vx. This gives me about a 5 degree climb angle at Vy and 8 degrees at Vx. This seems to very roughly correspond to your 6 and 10.

To get your pitch angle, you'll have to add your AoA on top of that. Add 5 degrees AoA to the 5 degree pitch at Vy, giving you 10 degrees, and adding, say 7 degrees AoA to the 8 degrees climb angle at Vx gives you 15 degrees pitch attitude. Using your climb angle numbers puts you pretty close to 20.

Thanks & Informative. I'm still wondering about the physical markings on the attitude indicator. Say for lazy 8, and chandelle instruction as far as cross ref with pitch attitude during maneuver performance. At blah blah we are at xx deg's and holding back press. Just want to make sure I'm not saying the wrong thing.

At blah blah we are at xx deg's and holding back press. Just want to make sure I'm not saying the wrong thing.

You really haven't said clearly what the problem is. Where is your pitch attitude with respect to the lines when you're climbing at Vx, Vy?

I guess I have to experiment with the pitch ref to the horizon at 63 and 79 and compare it to the AI and see what I get, to know for sure what mark means what on the AI.

Say for lazy 8, and chandelle instruction as far as cross ref with pitch attitude during maneuver performance.

I say you cover the instruments with a blanket so commercial students can actually learn how simple these visual maneuvers are. There is no need to ever reference any instrument during a chandelle or lazy 8 if you do them visually and they are easier.

Edited: Grammer Police

I guess I have to experiment with the pitch ref to the horizon at 63 and 79 and compare it to the AI and see what I get, to know for sure what mark means what on the AI.
Plus, you will get slightly different pitch angles for those airspeeds on different days (temperatures). They are a reference, not a specific Vx, or Vy pitch setting.

Methinks not

I laughed at myself! I can't spell though and I know it so whatever I will stick to math it makes more sense.

. There is no need to ever reference any instrument during a chandelle or lazy 8 if you do them visually and they are easier.
...well, ... I'll have to comment on the use of the phrase, "no need to ever reference any instrument"...

IF you mean "Learn to do them by outside visual reference as PRIMARY, supported by instrument reference", and frequently with today's vidio-trained students, you have to put special emphsis on the outside, as in saying 'never-no need to ever use instruments', to get them off the instrument panel, but when too much instrument reference habit is broken, you re-introduce the PROPER reference to instruments, as is taught and referenced by the FAA, and by me. I find the PROPER balance of outside-inside reference is ideal and should be taught that way.

I was not trying to teach it mechanically with inside reference, just as a means of cross checking symmetry between points with a inside/outside method. The markings are 5 and 10 degrees any how. Cross checked with a vx, vy climb. Yes I agree they are just reference marks and depend on atmospheric conditions what attitude gives a vy or vx. Was just looking for something to keep talking about while performing a maneuver, and not be spitting out incorrect pitch attitudes as referenced by the AI.

...well, ... I'll have to comment on the use of the phrase, "no need to ever reference any instrument"...

IF you mean "Learn to do them by outside visual reference as PRIMARY, supported by instrument reference", and frequently with today's video-trained students, you have to put special emphasis on the outside, as in saying 'never-no need to ever use instruments', to get them off the instrument panel, but when too much instrument reference habit is broken, you re-introduce the PROPER reference to instruments, as is taught and referenced by the FAA, and by me. I find the PROPER balance of outside-inside reference is ideal and should be taught that way.

We do not ever have to worry about are students cross checking the instruments. Chances are by commercial they have spent the first 60 hours getting their private (probably looking at the instruments too much then), to instrument where they are glued to the instruments, and then we train these maneuvers. Even if you cover their instruments the entire time you train them for commercial they will still probably spend more then 10 percent of the time inside because they still trust them.

Keep in mind the FAA recommends 90 outside/10 percent inside for visual reference flying which is what the lazy 8's and chandelles are. This means the instrument scanning technique applied to commercial maneuvers, as they often are to "reference and judge their accuracy," is too long for the 90/10 FAA recommendation.

The FAA sure does let you use the instruments as explained above, but I have yet to see a commercial student yet that "trusts" his visual reference. This to me screams that the instruments are primary and the visual reference is secondary. To overcome this is simple, prove to the student (by covering the instruments) that they can perform chandelles and lazy 8's easily without them.

Either way, teach these anyway you want there are 100s. But keep in mind it is a visual maneuver and you have to break a likely recent instrument graduate of his "trusting the instruments" that is beat into them throughout the IFR training. It is back to seat of your pants push it and pull it and make it do what the maneuver requires without needing a glance here and their if at all to see the instruments.

Finally, re-enforcing that their primary instrument and what they must trust now is the natural horizon staring right at it eyes level is level flight, pretty simple you've done it your whole life and it works and can be taught in 10 minutes. Combine that with seat of your pants feel for rudder coordination and your a visual pilot again in under 30 minutes, but now they still need it reinforced that it does work.

It is back to seat of your pants push it and pull it and make it do what the maneuver requires without needing a glance here and their if at all to see the instruments.
Well said, and thank you for that clarification.

I don't teach just to pass the PTS. We flight instructors are not teaching people to fly if you only focus on doing perfect PTS maneuvers. The maneuvers in the PTS are the 'standardized' way that The FAA obseves and decides on an applicants flying skills. If the applicant can only do PTS maneuvers, then he really hasn't been trained to operate safely in our flying world.

The lazy 8 teaches us how to maneuver in a constantly changing pitch and bank situation. The essence of the maneuver is to be familiar with how the control feel changes as airspeed goes from va to near stall and back to va while controlling a constantly changing heading and altitude.

This training is not for the purpose of passing a checkride. It is a basic maneuver to get real good at co-ordination, but ultimately - it is to be able to perform and control the airplane in a situation such as, collision avoidance, terrain/obstacle avoidance, low circling approaches in low visibility, and such.

Sometimes, during these anticipated conditions where you have to maneuver such as in a chandelle or lazy 8, the vis is very poor and the pilot must rely on instrument reference.

That's all I'm sayin'

The lazy 8 teaches us how to maneuver in a constantly changing pitch and bank situation. The essence of the maneuver is to be familiar with how the control feel changes as airspeed goes from va to near stall and back to va while controlling a constantly changing heading and altitude.

Well first I agree with everything else except maybe the practical need for a lazy 8, I have yet to use that one.

The only reason I quoted this one section is to question other instructors feel towards using Va for chandelles and lazy 8's. Just because you are over Va doesn't mean you cannot maneuver without breaking your airplane, in fact you can do quite a bit above Va and still be safe. That being said, how do the rest of you guys tackle Va in relation to commercial maneuver? (Assuming your aircraft doesn't have designed chandell/lazy 8 speeds)

For me, I always have done a normal or low speed cruising situation for both of these.

The current PTS prescribed method with a max of 30 degree banks, and slow moving control inputs would be no problem in a standard trainer at cruise speeds.

I think the Va limitation goes back to the 'old days' when a chandelle and lazy 8 were at 60 degrees, like the steep turn.

Also, some aircraft may have speed limitations on these maneuvers, however, I suspect they are limited if you yank and bank abruptly in a real-life maneuver, not the PTS maneuver.