ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent grads

Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

eclipse said:
*yawn*

Need some cheese Paul?
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I may be a packers fan but I dont care to eat cheese. About the only cheese would be a goofy cheese hat....


Got quiet when I named one of your instructors/co workers as a person I talk to? Funny how that happens... Should to make it to PFN or DAB and JAX and want a few more I talk to a lot let me know. Until then I'd be hesitant from saying what others add would indeed be false. Keep in mind those same people you are seem to be calling liars are indeed already into the industry and thus could be a contact you would like to have later. Keep those bridges from being burned is all I'm saying. Including what could be a great contact at UPS later on.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

I would be happy to put my "opinion" up against any of your friends at any location in the southeast. I stand by my statements of ATP being a good place to learn and a good place to teach. We know the same people in all of the locations you mentioned.

I am not calling anyone any more of a liar than I am being called. Furthermore, I call it like I see it, regardless of who might be hiring me in the future. (RIC is where I am from, not necessarily where I instruct, though I have friends there as well- good ones.)

Koolaid works both ways- in the inability to accept any bad about ATP and the inability to say anything good. I am sure the majority of readers can see who is only positive and who is only negative. If you dont think that good instruction can come from a bad school and bad instruction can come from a good school, then you really dont have an accurate view of the Flight Instruction world- period.

Why should I worry who I might offend with my thoughts on JC if it encourages people to be honest? Truth is, I read DE727UPS' post clearly, if he is hiring, ATP grads need not apply. Hmmm. How is that for Koolaid?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Alright you are new here so perhaps we should re wind and let ya know a few things about this site. Perhaps re read some things in which both Don and I have both posted on here. However the immature koolaid comments are not needed. You are indeed entitled to your thoughts. However trying to call either of us out for being honest about our thoughts really gets you no where. In addition you are entitled to your thoughts, I was not aware that any of us had questioned your thoughts and comments. However it started off by thus calling myself and Don out due to our stance on ATP. We've both if you would do a search function have recommended ATP for things as well.

Heck just a few down CMEL add on for someone coming we've recommended etc. Perhaps its time for this thread to be closed.... As its gotten into mud slinging it appears more then a mature adult conversation.

Lastly your comment about JC. I again CAUTION you. There are many people on this site who have gotten jobs due to connections. Thus a great reason why someone who is an INSTRUCTOR would want to keep quite a few people close. Especially when one would assume they are looking to get on with a 121 carrier or even 135 in the near future? Dont go burning bridges man!
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Totally agree with you eclipse. I have no idea why anyone would think ATP is a bad place to learn. Even with the 90 day program. They pass the same checkrides everyone else does and they learn the same things everyone else does. The 90 day program just does things faster, instead of taking lessons once or twice a week, the 90 day student is going every day.

A lot of call ATP grads "90 day wonders" as if to somehow say that these pilots are somehow less of a pilot than someone who went to a differant flight school and spent more time getting their ratings done. Sure the program may be overpriced but it is their choice to spend that money and they are no less of a pilot than any other pilot with a fresh commercial rating. To think otherwise is rediculous.

To compare, would you say someone who completed their masters degree from college in 6 years is somehow smarter than the person who completed it in 3? Thats pretty much the same argument. Would you say a doctor who spent 7-8 years becoming a doctor is somehow better than a doctor who spent 5 years becoming a doctor? The answer is No, because they all learned exactly the same things and took the exact same tests.

Do you judge a good pilot merely by the number of hours they have logged or how long it took them to finish their ratings?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

We know nothing and you both know it all. You really wont even get a response for that above arguement. Perhaps someone else here with come around to educate. I dont have the energy to do so. Don, Ethan?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

I definatly dont know everything, and you probably know more than I do. However in this instance, there are very very few arguments one could make to convince me that an ATP grad is somehow less of a pilot than any other pilot with a fresh commercial ticket.

The ATP student will come out with the same if not more hours logged than most other flight school students. The ATP student will come out with a lot more experiance with complex multi engine aircraft than most other flight students.

Please explain to me how just because they did it in 90 days makes ATP graduates worse pilots than someone out of any other flight school?

Im not trying to be an ####### here, im just really curious as to why and how people got it in their head. Have some of you guys had bad experiances with ATP students? Any of them currently fly with an airline you work for?

So far the only argument ive heard is just because they do it 90 days.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

3enginejock said:
I definatly dont know everything, and you probably know more than I do. However in this instance, there are very very few arguments one could make to convince me that an ATP grad is somehow less of a pilot than any other pilot with a fresh commercial ticket.

The ATP student will come out with the same if not more hours logged than most other flight school students. The ATP student will come out with a lot more experiance with complex multi engine aircraft than most other flight students.

Please explain to me how just because they did it in 90 days makes ATP graduates worse pilots than someone out of any other flight school?

Im not trying to be an ####### here, im just really curious as to why and how people got it in their head. Have some of you guys had bad experiances with ATP students? Any of them currently fly with an airline you work for?

So far the only argument ive heard is just because they do it 90 days.
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People are wrongly associating the fast pace of the program to meaning less flight hours. Sure at a slower pace people have more time to study, however as a CFI/CFII/MEI at a small FBO, I can tell you that most students study habits would get them thrown OUT of ATP. Maybe 20% of my students show to me that they would do well at ATP.
An ATP graduate shows to me some one who is dedicated and driven to be a pilot and can handle stress. FBO route, you get a mixture of everything. Some who take forever who do not study, have a lot of hours and can't fly worth a damn.
More I instruct, the more I appreciate ATP's mentality. I am no Kool aid drinker, but I am glad I went to ATP.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

I appreciate you asking.... Me personally I have no issue with the time frame in which you get the ratings. I have no complaints about one getting their stuff done quick if they get it from a quality instructor. However when I was instructing I noticed a lot of the graduates were products of their instructors. Thus the products I saw were sub par in many regards. However that was only one location. You could tell, even according to our manager the two of us who were outsiders based on the level of ground and level of instruction given. Our manager was also the DPE and he himself would always comment on how mine and at the time an instructor Brains students were better then the others he did. However that is just one location.

Lets not get too far ahead of ourselfs though. ATP is one choice if one wants to get it done fast. That's it. In todays market and even that before the hiring freeze it did not matter where you went, who you knew, what your ME time was or anything. Most regionals will hire at 50 ME. Even RAH took a buddy of mine who had less then 30 hours of ME during that time. As well I could say those with less ME did just as fine in 121 training then those who didnt have it. Really IMO it doesnt make much of a different at least in a jet if you have 1000ME or 10ME when you go through training. The experience one has as a pilot and the knowledge they had is what mattered. I know I'm preaching to a choir since your family is indeed in the industry. But that is the now and what I have noticed.

However again if you want it done fast you are right ATP is the place period. But there's no need to get it done fast especially now. As well as the price goes why go fast when you can spend a month or two more and get it done for oh 1/2 the price else where. However I would just say this. The comments made in the past about a "90 day wonder" had to do with the fact that ATP does indeed, and there's no way to object, has certain DPE's doing rides. I know for a fact, minus two in JAX who could care less for mgt they are doing it their way, that there are many who will be hesitant to not do things ATP's way and thus if they want a solid base of checkrides they need a solid pass rate. Even on ATPs website they publish how the students will have a "laid back experience" during their checkrides due to only using ATP examiners. Lastly I would say this. I when going through my training failed my CSEL due to a lazy eight. I gained 11kts instead of keeping it under 10kts. You think I'm kidding I'll give you the Director of the Purdue Flight schools prgram who did my ride and you can ask. That's all. He said per the PTS he could not and would not pass based on that. I did it again and kept it at 9 and he was happy. Now while at ATP I had many students during their private never do a ground reference manuevers. Heck at the location I taught they never taught them it because the examiner would never use it. They were simply taught to pass a ride. So when I got them for the CFI single they had no clue what a turn around a point was, or when I said teach me about a rectangular course etc.... I had asked, "so you never learned these for your private yet you want me to sign you off for you to teach people these?" Their response was "I never had to do them for my ride since the examiner never made anyone." I was speechless.

I did a private student. I made sure she had a different examiner. I made sure she did the ground reference manuevers. Got her done on time and everything. However I got greif from the assistant manger at the location about why I wasted the time teaching her those and how it was pointless. Interesting... Well the fact that according to the FAR's I had to teach her that to find her ready for her checkride is why.

Anyways that's only one location and place. I know there are people like Erine who could give two ####s what Jim had to say. Same with Walt. Hell walt will even tell you that in ground school. That I can respect. But Walt would be the same one who would tell you about people flying unairworthy AC etc. How he's played jokes on students doing a ferry flight and busting them on the ramp for doing a ferry flight with more then one person etc etc. Again these are small things. You could argue they happen else where to. I would no object. But that's my experience with ATP. I only did a CFI course with them. However I had always questioned the quality of instruction based the fact most just learned how to fly 90 days ago. Let alone now they are teaching others. Some can do it and do it great. However I did not see that as a vast majority. Again that's my 2 cents.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

I have worked at several different FBO's as an instructor. It was ALWAYS a frustration to me that my student would do well in a lesson then couldnt fly for several days or sometimes weeks. On many flight lessons I was duplicating a previous lesson that was forgotten or rusty from disuse. Anyone who has instructed at an FBO can relate. I always did everything I could to get them to fly two to three times a week minimum, though it rarely worked out that way. One very big advantage of the 90 day program is the total immersion in aviation. It really helps.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

BillH said:
People are wrongly associating the fast pace of the program to meaning less flight hours. Sure at a slower pace people have more time to study, however as a CFI/CFII/MEI at a small FBO, I can tell you that most students study habits would get them thrown OUT of ATP. Maybe 20% of my students show to me that they would do well at ATP.
An ATP graduate shows to me some one who is dedicated and driven to be a pilot and can handle stress. FBO route, you get a mixture of everything. Some who take forever who do not study, have a lot of hours and can't fly worth a damn.
More I instruct, the more I appreciate ATP's mentality. I am no Kool aid drinker, but I am glad I went to ATP.
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Keep in mind when you are indeed instructing at an FBO you will get a great mixture of student base. However some just want to learn from time to time. Some are just there for S&Gs. Some are there for many reasons. Some really want to bust butt and get it done. there's no way you can assosciate the two. An FBO student base has many professionals who have no intrest in making a career of it. However they want it as a hobby. Thus their mentality of studying and what not is not all they do. At ATP that's all the student is there to do. Thus its their job. YOU should know this when you are instructing at an FBO they are not only there to fly. They have a 9-5 job to do. Probably a fmaily to feed etc. Therefore flying would be there 3-4 if not 5th priority.

So with saying that it is my thought there is no way to compare the two to be quite honest. There just is not a fair way in regards to it either way. Now if you want we can compare ATP with a college program and their students.... and then I could also say there is not a fair comparisoin because ATP would lose hands down based on the college program they have more time. Thus they go further into depth with topics and their students "Knowledge" is a lot more indepth and better then those at ATP.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

meyers9163 said:
Keep in mind when you are indeed instructing at an FBO you will get a great mixture of student base. However some just want to learn from time to time. Some are just there for S&Gs. Some are there for many reasons. Some really want to bust butt and get it done. there's no way you can assosciate the two. An FBO student base has many professionals who have no intrest in making a career of it. However they want it as a hobby. Thus their mentality of studying and what not is not all they do. At ATP that's all the student is there to do. Thus its their job. YOU should know this when you are instructing at an FBO they are not only there to fly. They have a 9-5 job to do. Probably a fmaily to feed etc. Therefore flying would be there 3-4 if not 5th priority.

So with saying that it is my thought there is no way to compare the two to be quite honest. There just is not a fair way in regards to it either way. Now if you want we can compare ATP with a college program and their students.... and then I could also say there is not a fair comparisoin because ATP would lose hands down based on the college program they have more time. Thus they go further into depth with topics and their students "Knowledge" is a lot more indepth and better then those at ATP.
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Well you already lost that bet, my FBO is the contractor for a Colleges aviation program, half of my students are college kids, other half are FBO customers. Sorry to say, but only a small percentage of students show to me the drive to be a professional pilot. I also ask all of my students what it is that they want to do? Fun? or a Career? I push the ones who want it to be a career much harder for their own good. The ones that do it for S&G, I try to restrain myself. I get mad, but thats only because I care for my students and want them to do well. Other side of the coin is that a lot of these guys are 19 years old, they are still kids and don't yet get the big picture of just how serious they need to be in the cockpit. The airlines are fast paced, an ATP graduate will feel at home, an FBO kid will have a rude awakening when he finds out that he has deadlines to learn stuff.

___Updated____

Well let me add that the college I instruct for, it is a community college and the kids do have jobs on the side... So yes in regards to your point about college kids having more time to study, I see that point. Maybe my viewpoint is a bit warped but the people I went to ATP with were extremely motivated, aviation nerds, lived, breathed, ate aviation up. My training partner who posts on here shares the same drive I have. Aviation is our life, nothing much outside of it. TODAY was the first day off in over a month that I actually took off and didn't go to work. I rarely see this at the FBO.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Utah Valley State? I would just say there's a huge difference between a Purdue program or an Ohio State Program and an ATP.... Those are the sort of college programs I was referring to. But if you are speaking of a Utah Valley State and they are doing it as a career perhaps that mentality is different then those at ATP. I knew one who did that as well and I'd take the student at ATP over him. However the FBO is a different experience and thus should be treated as so. Also FBO to FBO are different. So we could argue much there as well. I'm not doubting. Yet I'd say there are students at ATP who are not as motivated as well. Thus why we've viewed many getting kicked out lately and many not going to CFI school etc.....
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

meyers9163 said:
Utah Valley State? I would just say there's a huge difference between a Purdue program or an Ohio State Program and an ATP.... Those are the sort of college programs I was referring to. But if you are speaking of a Utah Valley State and they are doing it as a career perhaps that mentality is different then those at ATP. I knew one who did that as well and I'd take the student at ATP over him. However the FBO is a different experience and thus should be treated as so. Also FBO to FBO are different. So we could argue much there as well. I'm not doubting. Yet I'd say there are students at ATP who are not as motivated as well. Thus why we've viewed many getting kicked out lately and many not going to CFI school etc.....
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Well the one true constant to all of this is that it lies on the shoulders of the student just how much they want to learn and get out of the program they choose. Most of the information is out there in books...
 
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