ATP Supply and Demand - New study

[Maximilian_Jenius]

RNs aren't cleaning up crap. Do your research. I've got a few friends who are nurses making six figures, and they never touch bodily fluids. They mostly do paperwork, monitor machines, do routine medical procedures such as taking blood, and oversee the CNAs who do the dirty work. And again, this is just one example. There are many good jobs paying good salaries that don't require you to work for $20k to start after accumulating $80k+ in debt.

At the community college here, it only cost between $5-8k, to graduate as an RN. There's a 3-4 year waiting list however...

 

[wheelsup]

Psych nursing pays far more than being a medical nurse. A nurse at my job starts at about $67k, with only a two year degree, and goes up to about $85k. The nurse I worked with tonight is making $57 an hour. My friend is a medivac nurse and started at $95k. He only has his associates. Also nurses only typically work three days a week for twelve hour shifts. With four days off, so a lot of nurses have a second job. My night nurse made about $185k this year, working two jobs, she only has a BS.

A nurse practitioner, who holds a Masters or a Doctorate can make about $200k, and the highest paying nursing job is an anesthesiologist nurse. They can make about $150-200k, they have a Masters degree though.

You're right though, nurse pay differs greatly by region, with the Midwest and the south typically paying the lowest. Nurse on the left coast, more especially in states like California, pay the best.

And saying those jobs are the same as a commuter airline FO is demeaning to the nurses.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Why are you only looking at starting wages? We're talking about a career, not a single year of a career.

But hey, if you want to talk about just first year pay, that enhances my argument. A $27/hr starting wage, without any overtime, is $56k. The nurses I know didn't start out that low, by the way, and yes, they were in the south, albeit in large cities. So starting out, the nurse makes almost triple what the pilot does his first year. In fact, they're making almost what the captain he's flying with is making. This is a nurse, for heaven's sake! Not a doctor, which pilots want to compare themselves to. Do you not see the problem here?

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

And saying those jobs are the same as a commuter airline FO is demeaning to the nurses.

A regular psych RN is the equivalent of a fast food cashier. All they basically do is pass out meds. When they're not doing that, I see them sleeping, watching movies on their phone or on the internet. And they're making at least about $90k. Cushiest job, ever!

 

[Stone Cold]

Is that really the standard that you're applying? Pilots like to pretend that their jobs are equivalent to doctors and lawyers, yet you're trotting out ditch diggers and sewage workers to say that aviation isn't so bad? I think that really says a lot right there.

Seriously, I'm not comparing what I do to ditchdiggers. I'm pointing out there are much worse professions out there to make a living. Do a search, I don't believe I've ever used the doctor or lawyer analogy. It's more disengenuous than your assessment of our job. What did you do prior to flying?

I'm sorry, but I think you are. There are just so many good opportunities out there that don't involve the years of suckage and the massive amounts of debt that aviation does, that I just don't think you're being even handed about your assessment. Someone can go to nursing school and get a four year degree and become a registered nurse for less than the cost of college and flight training, and they can immediately leave school and go make RJ captain money just about anywhere in the country they want to live. That's just one example.

Pilots need to stop kidding themselves. This isn't 1975. The profession isn't what it once was.

I know nothing about nursing. I have no passion for it. I would be miserable being in a hospital every day.

It's not the profession it once was, and neither are many professions. How are the union workers working on cars doing nowadays? How are doctors doing with sky high liability insurance, and having their pay cut, from my understanding. How easy is that high paying lawyer career going, @jtrain609? As Wheelsup said, not everybody gets to inherit the family business.

It's a job, just like everything else. Perspective is everything. What did you do before flying again?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I know nothing about nursing. I have no passion for it. I would be miserable being in a hospital every day.

I have no passion for real estate, either. But I make a crapton of money managing it, and it allows me to buy an airplane and enjoy a hobby that I am passionate about. I think this idea that you have to be passionate about what you do for a living is more than a bit odd. A career is a way to make money. Work to live, don't live to work.

 

[Stone Cold]

I have no passion for real estate, either. But I make a crapton of money managing it, and it allows me to buy an airplane and enjoy a hobby that I am passionate about. I think this idea that you have to be passionate about what you do for a living is more than a bit odd. A career is a way to make money. Work to live, don't live to work.

What did you do before flying?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What did you do before flying?

I worked in a warehouse. It sucked. Still paid better than an RJ FO, though.

 

[wheelsup]

Why are you only looking at starting wages? We're talking about a career, not a single year of a career.

Why are you?

Year 3 pay on our 330 is $155k base plus $25k into your 401k.

For the years I was at a commuter as a CA, my average W2 was $97k.

Relative to work done, I had it pretty good. F/O wages suck at the commuters, and you're going to spend 5-8 years on average there unless you get lucky.

It is what it is. If you don't want to roll the dice, go be a nurse, or XYZ. This is America, the nice thing is we can choose what field we want to work in.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Agreed, but people need to see the reality in order to make an educated decision. My view is that too many pilots paint far too rosy a picture of what it's like to be a pilot. Sometimes it's because they've been at a major for a while and honestly don't remember how much it sucked to be a 5 year RJ FO on the verge of defaulting on student loans, but sometimes it's just dishonest. My goal is to make sure that people see the other side of it. If they don't, they can't make an educated decision.

 

[Stone Cold]

I worked in a warehouse. It sucked. Still paid better than an RJ FO, though.

I never flew for an airline, so I wouldn't know that lifestyle.

 

[jskibo]

Interesting set of observations......Allow me to add mine

Let's start with Money isn't everything, then I'll come back to it later.

1984, I just graduated High School, all I wanted to do was fly. I had a bunch of crap jobs (grocery, body shop, automotive machinist apprentice, Elevator finish resurfacing, underground sprinkler installer, pool installer) that paid crap to decent money but all sucked in their own way. I did them to pour everything I could into flying, splitting my time between KDPA and KARR. Inevitably I would always run out of money, then spend a bunch of time making and saving some, only to start three steps back from where I was. Along came marriage, a kid and then divorce. Facing child support payments, I took a job with an Armored car service. Tons of overtime, money was pretty good for then (late 80's) at about $30k a year for a guy with a high school education. But I worked so many hours flying was out of the question, and I stopped with about 30 hours logged.

I needed a way to make pay my obligations, earn enough to live on and have a chance to go to school (hopefully to fly), but having a lot of cash in my pocket (Don't laugh, in 1989 that was decent money) kept me from moving on when I really needed to, call it the bronze handcuffs if you will. Into my third year with Illinois Armored Car we finally had a robbery that involved a guard being killed, a guy I was hired with and went through training with. I got to arrive on scene to transfer the truck contents while he was still lying on the ground. That was the ticket, no job was worth my life in such a way, but what could I do? I made good money, I had bills so I couldn't just up and leave for school, besides I applied and made too much for Pell grants then, more loans? ughhh......

Happened to notice a set of recruiting offices on the way home the next day.

After a week of talking, some tests and a medical exam I had a report date for boot camp in the Navy. I knew in four years I would have the GI Bill, the Illinois Veterans Grant for four years of free school and a chance to get back into flying with no distractions, plus I would learn a lot, travel and serve my country. See my love of aviation started with stories from my father of his missions in B-25's and B-26's in WWII. I put in my two weeks notice as I didn't want to face the same fate as my friend who got robbed before I had a chance to leave. I drove a limo for three months while I waited for boot camp.

Navy money wasn't great, nor was the 12 on, 7 days a week schedule while at sea, but there was an end goal and it wasn't that far away. Besides, I got to work on some cool aircraft, see some great places, and make a lot of good friends. To add to that, NAS Whidbey Island had a flying club. PA-28-140 was $28hr wet, and an ugly C310 was $90. I started flying between deployments again, made it through my long XC and was doing final clean up and prep work for the ride, but time was short before deployment and money was tight, so I put it off, entrusting my log book of 70+ hours to my then wife for safe keeping while I deployed on a 6 month cruise. My wife moved on with someone else while I was gone, but in some bitter moment, burned my logbook. 70 hours and 8 years of training gone with a match in a minute. No big deal, I was applying to Illinois Universities with flying programs, I could make up that time and hell, arriving at school with all that background and training should make the first few courses much easier.

I was accepted to SIU Carbondale. Now out of the Navy I only had to wait a few months and I would be flying again. No big deal.

I was dual major, Aviation Flight and Aviation Management and having a great time. Got an easy A in Flight 101 lab as they had no idea I had previous flight training and just thought I learned quick. In reviewing my Navy training records with guidance folks they suggested I also enroll in Aviation Maintenance as I would get a bunch more credit hours for experience. I did that and before the second semester I took my papers to FSDO, got signed off for Airframes and General mechanic and took the written and practical. Got an instant 28 extra credit hours, cutting the AS in Aviation MX degree to 1 year.

It was in one of my Powerplant classes that an instructor introduced me to a Product Support Executive that was visiting from McDonnell-Douglas. We talked and he suggested I apply for a Co-Op they had. I had no clue what Product support was, but there was money involved, plus free housing and easy credits that would apply to my BS in Av Mgmt degree. I applied and was notified I was accepted, so off I go to St. Louis the next semester and end up writing Maintenance tasks for the Super Hornet for a semester, but I missed a semester of flying by doing it. Its OK, I'll make it up. ....well not really the next semester as I had a crushing class load (I was the idiot that would take 18 credit hour summers and 21 credit hour semesters. I was older, in school with 18 year olds who acted a bit different than my Navy friends and I just wanted to get out and fly).

After the second semester of Co-Op I was given a job offer, it was guaranteed for a year as long as I graduated. I was looking at $40k a year to start (1996), where the guys I was in flight with were barely making $20k, if they could find something. I still had child support to pay too. My choice was dump flight and MX as I needed every credit hour I could take to wrap up the BS in Aviation Management in the time I had left, or continue on and hope I could make it on a hopeful offer of $20k at graduation. I took the quick easy money thinking, well hell with this cash I'll just finish the ratings on my own (I only had a PPL and 90 hours at that point).

I settled in at McDonnell-Douglas and a short time later we merged with Boeing. I found out I was good at what I did and quickly started rising in the company. But each promotion required a move around the country, or overseas. The money was coming in at a good pace, but I was too busy or always travelling and could never find the time to get back to flying. Every other year was another promotion, more hours, more time in Europe or Middle East...and more money. In less than 8 years I doubled my starting pay. By the time I reached my last position at Boeing, C17 GSP Ops and Execution Sr Manager in Long Beach, I had lived in 5 states and two countries and my base pay was 2.5 times my starting salary, but with the COLA for moving to SoCal, it was four times my starting pay (yeah, with one of those "worthless" Aviation Management degrees )

I found a bit of time and a very flexible instructor at KLGB willing to fly at night or whenever. I also found JetCareers around this time. I was going back for my Instrument at least, but it had been nine years since I last flew. Crap would I even remember how? Would I look like a fool? It actually came back quickly, I finished my review, got signed off and was on to Instrument training. I realized how much I missed flying, and in turn how much my cube job sucked. I had no more desire to move up at work, it just wasn't fulfilling. But my youngest daughter was born, I had to take a break again before I finished up my Inst. ughh, not again....

I got an offer at GE Aviation. More money than my base salary in California, with a West Michigan cost of living in a similar role, but with a bit less stress and no direct reports to me. I took it, moved and within a year was back to flying. Spent the next two years finishing up Instrument, Seaplane, Commercial and finally CMEL. Did it all with cash, so no debt. But my job sitting in a cube still sucks.......

So here I am, late forties, having made six figures for the past decade, but regretting that I took the easy money path 20 some years ago, because "I could get back to flying later". I have my tickets (actually doing CFI stuff now again), but not the hours. By the time I get the hours I will be 50, maybe 51. I'd leave my job in a heartbeat if I had a way to make enough to take care of my family (and they don't expect a mansion and new cars) and go fly. I just don't see it in the near future, though I haven't given up.

Don't pick a career based just on money. It seems really awesome at the time, but its not. Pick something you enjoy, something you wake up each morning and want to do. I'd give it all up if I could just go back 20 years........I see now that I made a mistake. Don't make the same one......

You can make a lot of money, but you can't buy time with it....

So anyone have a flying job for a CMEL with 25 years Defense industry Product Support and Program Management experience? Oh yeah, I have an Airframes license if that helps.....but the last planes I worked on were Hornets and Intruders

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I think a lot of it comes down to different priorities too.

Some people are motivated by "cash, money, hoes" like @ATN_Pilot. These people will be almost always let down by this industry.

But for the rest of us it can be anything from a simple love of flying (@Autothrust Blue), for others it's the idea that you can go to almost any airport in the world and between jumoseat, nonrev, and ZED fares you can get on damn near any airplane to anywhere.

For some it's a combination thereof. If you think you want to fly for a living, do it. You absolutely will fall on hard times and question whether it is right for you at some point in time. But you are the only one that can decide if this industry is right for you. I also truly believe that you won't really understand this industry until you're in it. This website does about a good job preparing you as possible, but even the most prepared will be caught off guard.

This isn't a job, it's a lifestyle. Some people love it, some don't.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

My wife moved on with someone else while I was gone, but in some bitter moment, burned my logbook.

Holy crap! I swear, every time I login to this forum, you guys have come up with a new way to convince me that I'm right about marriage and relationships.

I think a lot of it comes down to different priorities too.

Some people are motivated by "cash, money, hoes" like @ATN_Pilot.

Actually, I'm more motivated by QOL. I was making plenty of money at SWA. It was the QOL that I found unacceptable. But yes, money and hoes are good motivators, also.

 

[mshunter]

Absolutely not. I enjoyed parts of it (flying standups at AirTran was a wonderful job), I learned a hell of a lot, and I accomplished a hell of a lot as a union rep. I have zero regrets about my flying career. But I also have zero regrets about leaving it.



No, it's not disingenuous at all. If AirTran was still around, it's true that I would probably still be there. But that's only because I was making none of the sacrifices that are so common in the piloting profession. I was getting exactly the schedule I wanted, never working a holiday, driving 25 minutes to work, etc. It was the perfect job. But as you know, it turned from perfect to unacceptable. And that's the whole point: the career involves substantial risk of turning your entire life upside down at the drop of a hat. Furloughs, mergers, domicile closings, downgrades, the list goes on. And because of that, a great situation can quickly become an awful one. That's not something that would be true if @Maximillian_Jenius had his own practice. While he may have to work hard to build up his customer base, he never has to worry that he'll be forced to move or commute across the country, or that he'll be furloughed, or that his pay will be cut in half, etc.

Flying is great. Flying for an airline isn't that great. It's a good job, if you can get the right situation. But that situation can disappear, and then you're just left with a job that you resent. So I say, without being disingenuous in the slightest, if he's in the position to go another route in a well paying career and fly for fun, that's the best choice.

Doctors loose practices all the time. Building up a practice has just as much risk as having a domicile close, or being merged. And he may never be presented the opportunity to start his own practice.

Bottom line, this is all opinion.

I commute from LA to Atlanta for work, in reserve. It's not a bad life. Could it be better, hell yes it could. Is it a bad life, not at all. Life is all about perspective. Be happy for what you have, not what you had, or what could have been. I've had a lot, lost a lot, and am not at a place where I'm even close to being back where I was in my mid twenties. But I am much happier.

 

[JordanD]

This isn't a job, it's a lifestyle. Some people love it, some don't.

And I'll add to that, sometimes it sucks and sometimes it's cool. Which would be the case with a 9-5 for a lot of people too.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

And I'll add to that, sometimes it sucks and sometimes it's cool. Which would be the case with a 9-5 for a lot of people too.

When it's awesome it's really awesome. When it sucks it really sucks. It's rather bipolar.

 

[jskibo]

Pilots are one of those unique jobs that people in other careers (admittedly higher paying ones usually because of the cost of entry) sometimes enjoy doing as a hobby as well... You don't always find that in other careers.

Its not like Pilots use their off time to pursue their lifelong hobby of ditch digging.....

You see doctors that buy a plane and want to be a pilot, but you don't see many pilots having a hobby of being a doctor (@DPApilot being the exception with his amateur gynecology hobby)

 

[ppragman]

I worked in a warehouse. It sucked. Still paid better than an RJ FO, though.

That's not that great of a metric for a quality job. Entry level 121 pay is pretty abysmal. I will say that as long as I've been in aviation - the only time I've made less than $35,000 per year was while I worked in the lower 48, and I only made less than that so that I'd be able to get turbine time - it was a cost/benefit analysis that paid off. Now I make just a touch shy of $100k and I am home nearly every night - I could make $82k and be home every night, but picking up some extra shifts and helping to cover adds up quick and is easy and adds some variation to my job that helps make me a better and more experienced pilot. A guy who flew for Ameriflight or CapeAir could come here with as little as 2500hrs total time - (and that's traditionally where we've drawn our applicants) and do this same job - I came at it kind of round about and came to work here with around 5800hrs or so, but you could do this a lot faster than that. Why people have this fascination with the airlines - a job that takes you far from home, for low pay, and a crappy schedule is beyond me. I can't really justify the time-away to money equation at less than mainline pay, and even then it's several years at most to get back to where I am now and I have to spend inordinate amounts of time away from home.

 

[mshunter]

RNs aren't cleaning up crap. Do your research. I've got a few friends who are nurses making six figures, and they never touch bodily fluids. They mostly do paperwork, monitor machines, do routine medical procedures such as taking blood, and oversee the CNAs who do the dirty work. And again, this is just one example. There are many good jobs paying good salaries that don't require you to work for $20k to start after accumulating $80k+ in debt.

I don't know what kind of magic land you're talking about, but my mom has been an RN for 20+ years. She does all those things you've talked about, and had to touch bodily fluids. She had to help patients with bed pans, give them sponge baths, gets yelled at by cranky people she is only there to help, etc.

 

[Boris Badenov]

(@DPApilot being the exception with his amateur gynecology hobby)

Amateur indeed. So far, zero satisfied customers.