ATP Supply and Demand - New study

Maximillian_Jenius said:
Yeah. I don't have to do anything, like work at it, it just comes natural to me. Reading,watching, listening to people and figuring out their motives, and how they think. Remember the last conversation we had about your ex.

If increased psychiatric screening for pilots becomes a thing, it will definitely be one of my specialties.
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Do you speak German? (too soon?)
 
My Mother? I'll tell you about my Mother...

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Maximillian_Jenius said:
Just showing up at the airport, and strapping on a jet for a five day sounds so much easier.
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It is in some ways. But lots of bad goes along with it. Not worth it, at least not from my perspective.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It is in some ways. But lots of bad goes along with it. Not worth it, at least not from my perspective.
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I understand ATN and their pilots accepted a shaft job at gunpoint, but seriously, do you think your life was wasted by your flying career? If ATN was still in business, would you still be a flying for a living? I think you're disengenuous when you say stuff like this.

I'm not saying this career is for everybody, and I don't know Maximillian_Jenius or his circumstances other than from here, but to say a blanket statement like it's not worth it, I believe is dishonest.

Some people find the golden nugget and fly for their dream airline. Some end up commuting 5000 miles to work to make their situation work, and some get out of the game to become property managers. I could not work in an office. It just doesn't suit me. Everybody has to see what's best for them.

To each their own...
 
Stone Cold said:
I understand ATN and their pilots accepted a shaft job at gunpoint, but seriously, do you think your life was wasted by your flying career?
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Absolutely not. I enjoyed parts of it (flying standups at AirTran was a wonderful job), I learned a hell of a lot, and I accomplished a hell of a lot as a union rep. I have zero regrets about my flying career. But I also have zero regrets about leaving it.

If ATN was still in business, would you still be a flying for a living? I think you're disengenuous when you say stuff like this.
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No, it's not disingenuous at all. If AirTran was still around, it's true that I would probably still be there. But that's only because I was making none of the sacrifices that are so common in the piloting profession. I was getting exactly the schedule I wanted, never working a holiday, driving 25 minutes to work, etc. It was the perfect job. But as you know, it turned from perfect to unacceptable. And that's the whole point: the career involves substantial risk of turning your entire life upside down at the drop of a hat. Furloughs, mergers, domicile closings, downgrades, the list goes on. And because of that, a great situation can quickly become an awful one. That's not something that would be true if @Maximillian_Jenius had his own practice. While he may have to work hard to build up his customer base, he never has to worry that he'll be forced to move or commute across the country, or that he'll be furloughed, or that his pay will be cut in half, etc.

Flying is great. Flying for an airline isn't that great. It's a good job, if you can get the right situation. But that situation can disappear, and then you're just left with a job that you resent. So I say, without being disingenuous in the slightest, if he's in the position to go another route in a well paying career and fly for fun, that's the best choice.
 
dustoff17 said:
My bet is that this article, like many of the past (and future), will be slanted towards the opinion of the author; who happens to be the OP as well......
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Here is his profile:

"Michael McGee's research focuses on a variety of aviation, defense, and security related subjects for the Department of Defense and other government agencies. McGee was a distinguished graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, earning a B.S. in aeronautical engineering. He later earned an M.S. in aerospace sciences from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, an M.A. in strategic studies from Air University, and a Ph.D. in policy analysis from the Pardee RAND Graduate School.

McGee is retired from the U.S. Air Force. He spent the majority of his career as an F-16 pilot, including multiple combat tours. He was a Command Pilot, a Mission Commander, a Standards and Evaluation pilot, and spent four years as an instructor pilot in the F-16 division of the Air Force's Fighter Weapons School. He also specialized in classified program operations and integration, and air forces/ground forces integration. During the latter part of his career he specialized in international political-military relations, including extensive work in Israel and other parts of the Middle East."

Just taking a gander at it, it's not an article, but it's his dissertation from March of this year. The table of contents is four pages long. It contains a huge amount of research, graphs and data. There are also four pages of references. He is also a contributor to four other abstracts. If the subject matter were pertinent or important to me, or of interest to me, I think I'd give it a read at least. Because he is the author and it's his first post, doesn't mean it has no value or is deeply biased. It could be crap or very good. Without reading it, don't know.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
Absolutely not. I enjoyed parts of it (flying standups at AirTran was a wonderful job), I learned a hell of a lot, and I accomplished a hell of a lot as a union rep. I have zero regrets about my flying career. But I also have zero regrets about leaving it.



No, it's not disingenuous at all. If AirTran was still around, it's true that I would probably still be there. But that's only because I was making none of the sacrifices that are so common in the piloting profession. I was getting exactly the schedule I wanted, never working a holiday, driving 25 minutes to work, etc. It was the perfect job. But as you know, it turned from perfect to unacceptable. And that's the whole point: the career involves substantial risk of turning your entire life upside down at the drop of a hat. Furloughs, mergers, domicile closings, downgrades, the list goes on. And because of that, a great situation can quickly become an awful one. That's not something that would be true if @Maximillian_Jenius had his own practice. While he may have to work hard to build up his customer base, he never has to worry that he'll be forced to move or commute across the country, or that he'll be furloughed, or that his pay will be cut in half, etc.

Flying is great. Flying for an airline isn't that great. It's a good job, if you can get the right situation. But that situation can disappear, and then you're just left with a job that you resent. So I say, without being disingenuous in the slightest, if he's in the position to go another route in a well paying career and fly for fun, that's the best choice.
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I agree with what @ATN_Pilot is saying and I also disagree. Like I've said the logical side is screaming no, go forward, don't look back. I think that I'd be a really good clinical psychologist, I think that everyone has a natural gift. I believe it to be mine. But I can also be lazy. Lots of schooling involved with the field, I'm tired of school, and want to start a career and start making money now!

Where as being a pilot one only needs a four year to check the box. The emotional side (read non-rational) of my thinking gets me every time, thinking about what could have been. Growing up, I only ever wanted to be a pilot. And it (regret) really hits me hard every time I see/hear an commercial airplane. I mean I still come here and go to NJC, after giving up my aviation goals, and I don't really think that I have too much to really offer the site. But I just love aviation. But I have very strong hesitations, I really don't want $70k in new debt. The low regional pay, pilot drama, pilot politics. And eventually becoming bitter/jealous/entitled/butthurt like a lot are here because they're not at a major at age, whatever and still drowning in regional hell. I just plain don't want to be that guy.

But nothing is set in stone, I haven't decided anything. I'm staying focused first on completely my current goal, finishing school. I still have two years left to complete my undergrad, and one year for my Masters. Also maybe thinking of double majoring in Criminology. I've always been a very rational thinker, never really been impulsive. So I'll probably stay my course. But will probably always have that aching pull of regret whenever I see a jet.

@milleR post in this thread was very spot on with my current thoughts.

@ATN_Pilot. I really do like the King Air 350!!!
 
A Life Aloft said:
Here is his profile:

"Michael McGee's research focuses on a variety of aviation, defense, and security related subjects for the Department of Defense and other government agencies. McGee was a distinguished graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, earning a B.S. in aeronautical engineering. He later earned an M.S. in aerospace sciences from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, an M.A. in strategic studies from Air University, and a Ph.D. in policy analysis from the Pardee RAND Graduate School.

McGee is retired from the U.S. Air Force. He spent the majority of his career as an F-16 pilot, including multiple combat tours. He was a Command Pilot, a Mission Commander, a Standards and Evaluation pilot, and spent four years as an instructor pilot in the F-16 division of the Air Force's Fighter Weapons School. He also specialized in classified program operations and integration, and air forces/ground forces integration. During the latter part of his career he specialized in international political-military relations, including extensive work in Israel and other parts of the Middle East."

Just taking a gander at it, it's not an article, but it's his dissertation from March of this year. The table of contents is four pages long. It contains a huge amount of research, graphs and data. There are also four pages of references. He is also a contributor to four other abstracts. If the subject matter were pertinent or important to me, or of interest to me, I think I'd give it a read at least. Because he is the author and it's his first post, doesn't mean it has no value or is deeply biased. It could be crap or very good. Without reading it, don't know.
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Yeah, that's what I understand as well. I also saw that it was his dissertation. I'm not stating that it isn't well written; I stand by my original statement, research (and any paper describing that research) can be skewed to favor the opinion of the author.

I'm curious how many other pilot forums he joined just to get his paper read.
 
Dustoff17, valid point. The reason I posted was
1) I thought members of this forum may be interested in the research from an organization not connected to the industry, and has no vested interest in a shortage or no shortage. This research was funded by the USAF.
2) As a pilot of 30 years, I know there is one group that will give their unvarnished opinion, and that is operational pilots. If something is BS, they will not hesitate to call it out. To that end, I am very interested in feedback from current operators.

If it was inappropriate to post, I apologize.
 
dustoff17 said:
Yeah, that's what I understand as well. I also saw that it was his dissertation. I'm not stating that it isn't well written; I stand by my original statement, research (and any paper describing that research) can be skewed to favor the opinion of the author.

I'm curious how many other pilot forums he joined just to get his paper read.
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I have no idea if he posted his thesis on other forums or not. I haven't seen it before, but as I always say, what do I know? Maybe he's been a lurker here, maybe he knows someone who is a member here, maybe he just thought the research and the info might be helpful/interesting/useful considering this site's goals and decided to share it. And, without knowing him personally, or looking in depth at all the research (which seems to be extension) I have no idea if it's biased or not.
 
Vector said:
There is that allure of flying big shinny aircraft. Even a grown man finds irresistible. Aside from owning your own business, this 8 to 5 grind is miserable. Office politics alone leaves me desiring something else.
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Meh. For me, the allure would be that final flight at the end of the trip back to home. Getting old I guess.
 
dustoff17 said:
My bet is that this article, like many of the past (and future), will be slanted towards the opinion of the author; who happens to be the OP as well......
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While I am a huge fan of the Internet in general, I think exactly what you mention is its biggest downfall.

There is so much information available right now. Anyone can get out there and start a professional looking blog and suddenly you have people believing that immunization are bad, the IRS should be abolished, and that chemtrails are controlling our minds.

This isn't a comment about the article in this post because quite frankly I haven't read it, but rather general commentary on the Internet in general.
 
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