***ATP PRICE INCREASE*** as of 7/1/08

Sig said:
I haven't been here in quite a while, but I'll throw in two shiny copper discs.

First, ATP is a business. That is clear, and should not be forgotten.
Second, nobody knows what the future will bring for people breaking into the industry.

There are complex variables to consider, and as future "risk assessors," you all want to make the bestest decision firstest. You CAN'T! You can only do what is good for only you. Some of the posts on this topic show a lack of understanding of the airline biz (as pilots, never accept "fun" in exchange for "low pay" over a full career), some of them have some very specious "facts" (regarding a 250 hour guy shooting an approach exceptionally well: Put him on 10 mile final at 210 kts to a vis, no papi/vasi/GS), but most of all, you all are considering where your career of choice is taking you and how you spend your money now will affect you later.

That is clearly the most important factor. Do what is best for YOU. And when you decide what that is, never look back.

It IS, by the way, an incredible job! As I'm finishing up the move to the left seat in the next few days, I still can't believe how rewarding the past 4 years (and about 3700 hours) in 121 have been.
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Lack of understanding of the airline biz? How about a lack of understanding of money! Sorry Capt. (congrats on the upgrade btw ;) ) , but the way the industry and economy have rapidly changed in the last 3 years, as a 121 pilot I would highly advise against somebody new spending so much money on their training.

The job is great and by means I'm always willing to help people get into it, but I just think the Academy fast-track schools are a waste of money right *now*. Other than a few of the Regionals that not too many people are happy at hiring, these ATP grads would have dropped over $70k all said and done to get a fast track to instructor only to have few students, higher minimums at the Regionals, a weak US dollar and gas prices through the roof.

It just doesn't make financial sense to do that. ATP is a great school, but get real. In today's state of financial crisis, if you can save over $10,000 by going to an FBO, why wouldn't you?? I went through ATP when the program was $34,995 and the PPL was $7,995. My payment is $450/month right now because of the accrued interest and the current market. I can only IMAGINE what the payments would be on $60k to START! You're look at over $600-700. How in the HELL are you going to afford that on $1000 or LESS take home Regional pay?
 
Airdale,

STOP MAKING SENSE IMMEDIATELY! When you make a water-tight argument about this whole situation, there is no argument in favor of jumping in the game.

I can think of one or two, actually; but at the end of the day you have to look at the entire picture. It is a tremendous obligation for sure.

I think the worst thing about giving people advice is this: People seeking advice aren't really doing that. They are begging for someone to see things their way or the way they wish them to be- but reality seems to be dictating otherwise. Strength in numbers, validation, ladidawhatevah.... you get my point. They keep asking the same questions until they hear, FINALLY, what they've wanted to hear all along.

As with anything, there is not a single blanket answer for everyone because we're all different. But there are some points to strongly consider to be sure, and finally- they're going to go ahead and do it, right?

Thanks for the congrats. Almost there... couple of more days. The hard part is over, as a matter of fact.

Again- (for me) it HAS been one fantastic job, and I haven't been at it very long at all.
 
I can not even recommend people getting into the industry at all.

Want to become a pilot?

Nope, sorry, I can not support that decision.

Just throw in the towel, and find something else that has better stability.

Fortunately, not many people are asking for my opinion on that issue.
 
I disagree.

I think the long term prospects are good. It sucks now, but this could be a great opportunity to get in at the right time. This has always been a cyclical business.

The WSJ today had an article about the "pilot shortage". Not being a subscriber, I didn't get the jist of it. And I'm the last guy to jump on the "pilot shortage" bandwagon. But I don't see the future to be as dark as "Just throw in the towel"...
 
DE727UPS said:
"You just gotta do what you gotta do"

Is that the new ATP marketing slogan?
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It should be the slogan of every individual. Maybe ATP is what you gotta do, maybe it is not...
I gotta go back to Equador and find that Columbian girl I met...
 
Best Advice I can give for what its worth, stay at a local FBO, bang out the ratings part time and keep a full time job if you can, and better yet finish your college degree. The industry is way to unstable right now to spend over 60k on flight training to maybe get a job that pays 23k a year and maybe/maybe not get furloughed. The industry will recover at some point, but now, at least in my opinion is not the time to gamble. Get a job that youll be able to keep during the recession, and then once things have stabilized across the board get back into aviation....But thats just my .02c worth.
 
I say get your training done as fast as you can. Wasting time at an FBO while you have a full time job is just that, a waste of time! but that has nothing to do with ATP raising their price now does it?

Whether you go to ATP or not, getting through the first stages of your career fast is always a good thing. Untill someone can prove to me that its bad to get your ratings, instruct, and be hired at a regional airline within a year... Im all for it!
 
SIUav8er said:
I say get your training done as fast as you can. Wasting time at an FBO while you have a full time job is just that, a waste of time! but that has nothing to do with ATP raising their price now does it?

Whether you go to ATP or not, getting through the first stages of your career fast is always a good thing. Untill someone can prove to me that its bad to get your ratings, instruct, and be hired at a regional airline within a year... Im all for it!
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Lets see.

You can work a full time job and pay as you go at an FBO. You can finish up in a time frame that works with your schedule and you'll end up with you Commercial and CFI ratings a hopefully, little to no debt.

Or

You can take out a big loan, rush to get through your ratings and get stuck making $1000 a month as a CFI but pay 70% of your salary on the big loan you took out. Then you get a job at a Regional and now you're still paying 60% of your salary on that big school loan.

Sorry dude, looking back I would do it differently. Being debt free right now is something I can only dream about. My measly Regional salary gets cut in half with my school loan payment, which is now over $500 a month.

Tell me, what is the rush to get into an industry that isn't hiring much? Is it worth the load of debt?
 
Well... On the plus side, the fewer the people that can afford to get into aviation, the easier for us who are already in it. ;)
 
I would never wish for flight training to be so cost prohibitive that it becomes impossible for new people to get in to the industry...

It's already hard enough as it is.
 
kfour said:
I would never wish for flight training to be so cost prohibitive that it becomes impossible for new people to get in to the industry...

It's already hard enough as it is.
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Neither would I. Which is why I encourage those looking into to starting a career today, is too look at the cheaper ways to go about it. I would do anything to get rid of this monster loan payment I have, and that was when ATP was almost half the price it is now. You guys just don't realize that when you are starry eyed and just wanting to fly. Fuel prices are up at the FBO's too, but you'll still save close to $10,000 if not more. Trust me.
 
kfour said:
I would never wish for flight training to be so cost prohibitive that it becomes impossible for new people to get in to the industry...

It's already hard enough as it is.
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It's like college degree's, fewer the people that have them, better for the ones that do.
Yeh, I'd hate to have no new students to teach, but again, most of my students are wealthy South Americans... Money isn't too much of an issue...
 
BillH said:
It's like college degree's, fewer the people that have them, better for the ones that do.
Yeh, I'd hate to have no new students to teach, but again, most of my students are wealthy South Americans... Money isn't too much of an issue...
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:yeahthat:

Depends if you got the money or not
 
alloyicon said:
ATP is not a bad school according to my private pilot flight instructor. I had a talk with him to get his introspective on my best course of action for obtaining my Instrument throught CFII MEI ratings.

My CFI told me that his favorite rating to teach is the IFR rating. Knowing that he gets the greatest satisfaction out of instructing his IFR students, he still told me and I quote "I whole heartedly recommend ATP." He did the ATP 90 day program and said it is the best way to go. (Now I take that to mean the best way one can go if one can afford it)

I have given this a lot of though taking into account the opinions of a few of you JC's that have been extremely helpful in taking the time to answer my ATP related questions.

I interviewed with ATP which cost me $100.00 for the CFI's time and the 10 or so minutes in the simulator. ( I thought the sim. was more a tool for ATP to see if I could follow instructions. I say this because the sim @ KRAL was very touchy and I had trouble holding altitude. I was not happy with my performance. I'm assuming that the instructor took into account that it was my first time ever in a sim.) I even applied and was approved though Wachovia (my dad co-borrowed) for the full $58,995 (which included checkrides) @ 7.5% variable APR.

After all that I have decided that it is in my best interest financially to pursue my flight training in a quick paced (accelerated) yet cost effective manner. This is my plan of action.

I will be earning my Instrument Rating at one of those 10 Day IFR schools. Many of the 10 Day IFR courses guarantee you will complete your rating in 10 Days or any additional "instruction costs" are on them. You would still have to pay for any additional aircraft or sim rental.

I will then be heading off to the Midwest to get my Multi-Engine through CFII /MEI ratings at a small FBO.
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I'm actually filling out the application for ATP tomorrow, but through SLM instead of Wachovia, also with my dad as a co-borrower. Your situation seems similar to my own, I do not like the high price of ATP, but figured that it would be much harder to get financing for just a locat FBO rather then a national school. Do you know if this is true? Or if they approve me for ATP should I have no problems getting approved for one of my local FBO's, that is the only thing holding me back from switching my number one choice from ATP to a local FBO... Any help from anyone would be geat!
 
vladi34 said:
I'm actually filling out the application for ATP tomorrow, but through SLM instead of Wachovia, also with my dad as a co-borrower. Your situation seems similar to my own, I do not like the high price of ATP, but figured that it would be much harder to get financing for just a locat FBO rather then a national school. Do you know if this is true? Or if they approve me for ATP should I have no problems getting approved for one of my local FBO's, that is the only thing holding me back from switching my number one choice from ATP to a local FBO... Any help from anyone would be geat!
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Many FBOs have arrangements with SLM. I just discovered a new one (to me) here in AUS that has a Professional Pilot Program for around $44K and they do offer SLM financing.
 
My FBO also works with Sallie Mae.
My FBO can NOT get you done anywhere near as fast as ATP will... You go to ATP if you want to be done ASAP. Go to an FBO if you want to go at your own pace.
 
killbilly said:
Many FBOs have arrangements with SLM. I just discovered a new one (to me) here in AUS that has a Professional Pilot Program for around $44K and they do offer SLM financing.
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Be careful about that $44k program, make sure thats all your going to be paying. I think ATP is one of the ONLY schools that gives you the complete price up front.

-Rob
 
kfour said:
I would never wish for flight training to be so cost prohibitive that it becomes impossible for new people to get in to the industry...

It's already hard enough as it is.
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Well that's a bummer. . .:o

I won't go become a Doctor because it's too cost prohibitive.

Or even a Lawyer (yet), for the same.

Perhaps 18 year olds shouldn't be getting into the industry as they turn 19.

Just a thought. I don't think it'd be too damn of a bad thing for people to have some real work experience prior to coming into flying people or boxes around in someone else's plane.
 
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