ATP Jet Transition
- Thread starter JKJCKSN
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jayllamas
Well-Known Member
The jet transistion is more of just the high altitude & high performance endorsements. Kinda tricky because when you say "transition", I thought it means you are being type rated. But in reality you are not getting typed on the citation jet. But anyways, it's part of the 90 day program.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
The Jet Transition portion of the ACPP is up to 3 hours of time in a Cessna Citation Business Jet.
The purpose of this training is to gain your High Altitude and High Performance endorsements while getting an introduction to Turbine powered flight.
You are required to complete a rather lengthy pre-test on the limitations and systems of the citation, Turbine engine, high altitude aerodynamics, 02 Requirements & Hypoxia, Emergency Ops, as well as watch a video of a complete walk-around.
You will actually do the actual walk around yourself for the flight... make out the speed cards, do flows & call-outs, and you will log a minimum of 1 take-off and 1 landing which will include an approach.
You can log the time as Dual Received, Multi, Turbine, High Performance, XC.
I did mine just after my instructor ratings... and it was a welcome break as well as a wonderful glimpse into flying a jet. It was... quite simply... a blast, and one of the highlights of my program!
Bob
The purpose of this training is to gain your High Altitude and High Performance endorsements while getting an introduction to Turbine powered flight.
You are required to complete a rather lengthy pre-test on the limitations and systems of the citation, Turbine engine, high altitude aerodynamics, 02 Requirements & Hypoxia, Emergency Ops, as well as watch a video of a complete walk-around.
You will actually do the actual walk around yourself for the flight... make out the speed cards, do flows & call-outs, and you will log a minimum of 1 take-off and 1 landing which will include an approach.
You can log the time as Dual Received, Multi, Turbine, High Performance, XC.
I did mine just after my instructor ratings... and it was a welcome break as well as a wonderful glimpse into flying a jet. It was... quite simply... a blast, and one of the highlights of my program!
Bob
FlyingNole
New Member
Awesome experience, and if you fly with Mr. Dennis, he makes you feel comfortable and helps you enjoy it instead of making it feel like "work."
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
One more thing...
Here's a link to a movie of students on their Jet Transition Flight... Pretty neat!
http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/airline_career_pilot_program/jet_transition_movie.html
Bob
Here's a link to a movie of students on their Jet Transition Flight... Pretty neat!
http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/airline_career_pilot_program/jet_transition_movie.html
Bob
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
I did mine with Joseph Santa Lucia, CYXU-KFTY. That was the most fun I've had in my training with a solid hour of IMC, an ILS (hand-flown), and I got to activate the reversers on landing. :bandit:
It's a truly enjoyable and learning experience.
Neil
It's a truly enjoyable and learning experience.
Neil
FlyingNole
New Member
There are no reversers on the bird....I forgot exactly what exactly they are, but its just a cover that goes over the back of the engine.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Depends on whether you flew the 501 or the 525... I flew the 501 and we definately had reversers.FlyingNole said:
Here's the engine of the 525
and here's the 501 with the reversers present.
Bob
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Captain_Bob said:Depends on whether you flew the 501 or the 525... I flew the 501 and we definately had reversers.
Here's the engine of the 525
and here's the 501 with the reversers present.
Bob
Sorry, forgot to mention which one. I also flew the 501SP. Jet Joe really made it a lot of fun.
Neil
xjt145pilot
New Member
Just as a side note on the jet transistion. I would not let any of the ATP jet instructors log the jet time in your logbook. If I could erase it out of my logbook I most certainly would. It will come back and haunt you when you are interviewing and somebody asks: "I see you have Citation time, tell me how the pressurization system works." If you are like me, you will have no way to answer that question and will be forced to admit that all you did was sit in the right seat of a one person jet and go for a ride. You can try to put some other spin on it, but that is the cold hard truth. I had to answer that question when I interviewed for a corporate job.
Don't get me wrong; the time that you spent in the jet is a great experience and definetly shows you a side of aviation that you most likely have not seen before. But it is exactly that, an experience, not time that belongs in your logbook.
Don't get me wrong; the time that you spent in the jet is a great experience and definetly shows you a side of aviation that you most likely have not seen before. But it is exactly that, an experience, not time that belongs in your logbook.
NYer914
New Member
xjt145pilot said:
I think actually the point you are proving is that you should know about every aircraft that you log time in. When you go into an interview you should know the systems of your most complex multi-engine aircraft. For me I knew about the seminole and especially brushed up on the notes I took during the ground school portion of the jet transition program at ATP before my airline interview. I did not get asked about the citation, but was prepared to answer some systems questions. Preparedness, not avoidance is the better option for your interview.
xjt145pilot
New Member
Of course you should always be prepared and have knowledge of any airplane that you have flown. All I am saying is that I personally would not put the time in my logbook if I could do it again. It is not avoiding something, it is simply not opening yourself up to a potential weakness in an interview.
FlyingNole
New Member
Did you get the job?
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Hmmm... I disagree.
You do bring up good points though about being very familier with all the aircraft you have flown prior to job interviews...
That said... I logged the time exactly as I stated above.
Dual Received, Multi, Turbine, High Performance, XC
I had no issues with it on my 121 interviews. If they ask you about systems of a complex jet aircraft that you spent only 3 hours in roughly 1+ years ago, then most likely they are trying to goat you into a situation to see how you respond to it.
Are you multi-engine rated? Did the aircraft have more than one engine? Was the aircraft Turbine Powered? Was it a XC? Did you receive instruction by an appropriately rated flight instructor? If the answers are yes... then... it is completely legal and log-able as stated above... no grey areas at all on that one.
If however, you decided to log it (or have it logged) as PIC or SIC time... then I can see where you would receive potential flack from an interview... logging it as such implies that you had specific duties and responsibilities for that aircraft and are legally responsible for knowing those complex systems...
Think of the Citation ride as an advanced "Be a Pilot" ride... only this time... it's a jet... and your purpose isn't just to familiarize you with flight... it's to familiarize you with High Perfomance and High Altitude Ops... This type of ride could just as easily have been done in a P-Baron or King Air. Just because the engines are "different" doesn't change the legality of the logged time.
Hope that helps..
Bob
You do bring up good points though about being very familier with all the aircraft you have flown prior to job interviews...
That said... I logged the time exactly as I stated above.
Dual Received, Multi, Turbine, High Performance, XC
I had no issues with it on my 121 interviews. If they ask you about systems of a complex jet aircraft that you spent only 3 hours in roughly 1+ years ago, then most likely they are trying to goat you into a situation to see how you respond to it.
Are you multi-engine rated? Did the aircraft have more than one engine? Was the aircraft Turbine Powered? Was it a XC? Did you receive instruction by an appropriately rated flight instructor? If the answers are yes... then... it is completely legal and log-able as stated above... no grey areas at all on that one.
If however, you decided to log it (or have it logged) as PIC or SIC time... then I can see where you would receive potential flack from an interview... logging it as such implies that you had specific duties and responsibilities for that aircraft and are legally responsible for knowing those complex systems...
Think of the Citation ride as an advanced "Be a Pilot" ride... only this time... it's a jet... and your purpose isn't just to familiarize you with flight... it's to familiarize you with High Perfomance and High Altitude Ops... This type of ride could just as easily have been done in a P-Baron or King Air. Just because the engines are "different" doesn't change the legality of the logged time.
Hope that helps..
Bob
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Saw this after I posted the above... It caught my eye right away... after re-reading it... can you guess why?
Let's say you don't log it... and now let's say you get an interview... they ask where you got your flight time... you say "ATP" and they say "Hey... don't they have a Jet Transition program? Where's that time in your logbook?" or they ask how you earned your HA and HP endorsements since they don't see any aircraft logged in your logbook that you could have done that training in... nor do they see any "dual received" for that training.
Where are you then... by not opening yourself up to weakness... you may have very well just lost a potential job as you try to backpedal out of that question by stateting something to the effect of "Well I had done that training in a turbine powered aircraft... but didn't log it so I wouldn't have to answer any hard questions from you guys..."
So now... you have illegal endorsements in your logbook... you are backpedaling in an interview... you have shown a willingness to deceive to your potential employer... Where do you think that will get you?
Honesty is truly the best policy here. Log it... if you get asked about it and you are not sure of the answer... simply state... "I don't know. That was a long time ago... but I have all the information and I'd be happy to look it up and get back with you on that question later if you'd like."
Just remember too... the world is full of holes in the ground caused by guys who didn't want to open themselves up to potential weakness by letting people know they didn't know how to do something.
Keep flying safe... and welcome to JC!
Bob
There's that whole "moral" character thing about being a pilot too...xjt145pilot said:
Let's say you don't log it... and now let's say you get an interview... they ask where you got your flight time... you say "ATP" and they say "Hey... don't they have a Jet Transition program? Where's that time in your logbook?" or they ask how you earned your HA and HP endorsements since they don't see any aircraft logged in your logbook that you could have done that training in... nor do they see any "dual received" for that training.
Where are you then... by not opening yourself up to weakness... you may have very well just lost a potential job as you try to backpedal out of that question by stateting something to the effect of "Well I had done that training in a turbine powered aircraft... but didn't log it so I wouldn't have to answer any hard questions from you guys..."
So now... you have illegal endorsements in your logbook... you are backpedaling in an interview... you have shown a willingness to deceive to your potential employer... Where do you think that will get you?
Honesty is truly the best policy here. Log it... if you get asked about it and you are not sure of the answer... simply state... "I don't know. That was a long time ago... but I have all the information and I'd be happy to look it up and get back with you on that question later if you'd like."
Just remember too... the world is full of holes in the ground caused by guys who didn't want to open themselves up to potential weakness by letting people know they didn't know how to do something.
Keep flying safe... and welcome to JC!
Bob
xjt145pilot
New Member
No, I did not get the corporate job, which is good because I am now with XJT, which is a much better place to be.
Bob, I never said that logging the time was in any way illegal or "gray." You somehow determined that on your own from my statements. What I am saying is that it is worthless time. Most of us would scoff at somebody who was 300 hours of right seat King Air time; so how is three hours of right seat Citation time any different? You do bring up very solid points though about the HA and HP endorsements.
I am not here to bash ATP, I think that ATP is a good organization which fulfills its purpose well. Although, I do think that the so-called "Jet Transistion Program" is nothing more that a way to provide the ATP executives with a personal jet while charging the students $1,000 per hour and writing off the jet as a business expense. No regional is going to care if you have three hours of right seat, dual received, jet time. Plenty of people get hired without it.
Bob, I never said that logging the time was in any way illegal or "gray." You somehow determined that on your own from my statements. What I am saying is that it is worthless time. Most of us would scoff at somebody who was 300 hours of right seat King Air time; so how is three hours of right seat Citation time any different? You do bring up very solid points though about the HA and HP endorsements.
I am not here to bash ATP, I think that ATP is a good organization which fulfills its purpose well. Although, I do think that the so-called "Jet Transistion Program" is nothing more that a way to provide the ATP executives with a personal jet while charging the students $1,000 per hour and writing off the jet as a business expense. No regional is going to care if you have three hours of right seat, dual received, jet time. Plenty of people get hired without it.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Hey there 145,
Not putting words in your mouth, or inferring you stated anything with the gray area statement... just clarifying the time logged for others, since you called it useless and that is hardly the case.
Will it get you hired? No... Will it give you an edge over the next guy in an interview? Will a regional care about your 3 hours of jet time? Most likely not... Is that it's purpose? No...
As stated earlier... it's primarily a "training" and familiarization flight that is utilized to satisfy the training required for your HA/HP endorsements...
As mentioned before... This training could be done in any other type of aircraft. Just because it's done in a jet, at an affordable rate, doesn't mean that the owners of ATP are out to get you. If they found a way to write it off and make money on it at the same time... more power to them, that's just smart business. At the same time... it does a great job "familiarizing" future airline pilots with Turbine powered aircraft and their associated systems...
The cost is rolled into the overall program that you sign up for... That cost is a fixed cost from the day you sign up. If ATP wanted to make more money off of folks they could very well just accomplish the HA/HP training in an old P-Baron. They would still be able to write off the jet for their own purposes of visiting all their locations... remember they also do Citation Type Training as well.
Like you said... no regional will care about your 3 hours of time in a citation... but it could lead to other conversations like: Tell me about how you prepared for flying the citation? How was it different than flying a twin prop? Did you shoot an approach in it? How was your set-up for that approach different from how you normally shot approaches in a light twin? What did you take away from that experience? What type of CRM did you utilize in the Jet? etc...
Not saying your bashing ATP, either... and definately not trying to insinuate that you said anything you didn't say... 145, if you've followed these forums for any period of time prior to posting your first post then you'll know I am not that kind of person.
I am simply providing information and opinion that may be contrary to yours in the spirit of good debate.
My opinion... your time in any aircraft... no matter how simple or how complex... no matter how brief... is a learning experience that you take with you for years to come. It also makes for great hangar talk and interview fodder.
Log it legally... be responsible for it... enjoy the ride... and gosh yes... even be proud of it.
Hey... and welcome to XJT too! You're right about it being a much better place to be. I'm in ALB on a long overnight... first time in Albany... it's a lot nicer than I expected it to be...
Bob
Not putting words in your mouth, or inferring you stated anything with the gray area statement... just clarifying the time logged for others, since you called it useless and that is hardly the case.
Will it get you hired? No... Will it give you an edge over the next guy in an interview? Will a regional care about your 3 hours of jet time? Most likely not... Is that it's purpose? No...
As stated earlier... it's primarily a "training" and familiarization flight that is utilized to satisfy the training required for your HA/HP endorsements...
As mentioned before... This training could be done in any other type of aircraft. Just because it's done in a jet, at an affordable rate, doesn't mean that the owners of ATP are out to get you. If they found a way to write it off and make money on it at the same time... more power to them, that's just smart business. At the same time... it does a great job "familiarizing" future airline pilots with Turbine powered aircraft and their associated systems...
The cost is rolled into the overall program that you sign up for... That cost is a fixed cost from the day you sign up. If ATP wanted to make more money off of folks they could very well just accomplish the HA/HP training in an old P-Baron. They would still be able to write off the jet for their own purposes of visiting all their locations... remember they also do Citation Type Training as well.
Like you said... no regional will care about your 3 hours of time in a citation... but it could lead to other conversations like: Tell me about how you prepared for flying the citation? How was it different than flying a twin prop? Did you shoot an approach in it? How was your set-up for that approach different from how you normally shot approaches in a light twin? What did you take away from that experience? What type of CRM did you utilize in the Jet? etc...
Not saying your bashing ATP, either... and definately not trying to insinuate that you said anything you didn't say... 145, if you've followed these forums for any period of time prior to posting your first post then you'll know I am not that kind of person.
I am simply providing information and opinion that may be contrary to yours in the spirit of good debate.
My opinion... your time in any aircraft... no matter how simple or how complex... no matter how brief... is a learning experience that you take with you for years to come. It also makes for great hangar talk and interview fodder.
Log it legally... be responsible for it... enjoy the ride... and gosh yes... even be proud of it.
Hey... and welcome to XJT too! You're right about it being a much better place to be. I'm in ALB on a long overnight... first time in Albany... it's a lot nicer than I expected it to be...
Bob