ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am's ACE

[Captain_Bob]

ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Hi there folks,

Did any of the ACPP Grads get the Citation Type Rating? If so, please comment on that.

Next question is this... is it worth getting the Citation Type Rating, right at the end of the program? I have the funds available and think this would be a cool add-on, however, I'm quite positive that no one will be hiring me anytime soon after completion of the program to fly the citation

... I just think it would be a great thing to have on the resume. Any thoughts?

My next thought was taking the $8,000 and instead of the Type Rating, giving it to Pan-Am to attend their 4-week ACE (Air Crew Enducation) Program. I was thinking that this might be a nice way to ride out the time it may take to get hired by ATP as an instructor, and may provide a bit of balance on my resume so potential employers won't see just the 90 day crash course.

Any thoughts are welcome... from actual airline pilots, to ATP attendee's, instructors, & wanna-be's, and even Pan-Am folks as well... you too Doug

Thanks!

Bob

 

[pscraig]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

I've been told that unless you have significant hours in the aircraft, a type rating isn't very useful. Applying to SWA is an exception. Also worth considering is how useful is a type on a Citation 501? You don't need to be typed unless you are PIC, or Captain.

If I had $8000 left over at the end of ATP's program, (I wish!) and I was not hired, I might get some more multi time in the ASAP program. Or I might fly a little less and visit Europe. My point is that so early in our careers, I think a jet type won't give the impression that we would like. When I get around 800 hours or so I am going to take the FEX written, an appropriate test for someone hoping to move up into a turboprop for a while. That same $8000 (plus some interest) can buy you that 737 type rating in a few years when you really need it, and can use it.

How will employers see a 90-day crash course, and why would that be detrimental? I am constructing my aviation resume and it lists ratings and times, but does not list where I did those ratings. As far as quick training, an airline should like to see that you can succeed in a fast-paced training environment. A relative just got hired by a regional to fly the CRJ, and he describes ground school and indoc as "drinking from a fire hose." They don't waste any time, and run the sim 24/7-he had the 12mid-5am shift. Ouch.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

That type rating at ATP is a marketing ploy. Nothing more. Think about it...you don't need to be typed to be a F/O. You don't need to hold an ATP to be an F/O. You DO need to have both your ATP and a type rating to be a captain. Now, I'd bet that most people coming out of ATP don't have enough hours to get their ATP, so what the hell good is a type rating? Buying a type rating is a huge waste of money in most cases...most defintely this one.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Well, so far so good...

I appreciate the responses... You are confirming what I expected.

Soooo... should I spend the extra and just build time, or would a professional Air Crew Education program be worth it. It's 4 weeks long and it's 72 hours of instruction in EFIS, EICAS, FMS, Flight Deck Procedures, Part 121 Dispatch procedures, Turbine Engine Systems & Principles, Advanced Flight Rules & Meteorology, as well as CRM. Lastly I would be getting 30 hours of training in a CRJ-200 trainer 15 as Captain and 15 as F/O.

I'm trying to find a good mix of quality and quantity... however, if it's all about quantity at this stage... maybe that's the direction... ???

Bob

 

[EatSleepFly]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Screw all of that stuff. Get your CFI, CFII, and MEI and get a job as an instructor. THAT is quality time. All that other stuff will come when you get a job that requires it.

 

[robair73]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

I agree, you don't need all of the "window dressing". Waste of time and money.

 

[Sig]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Hey, Bob! I've been away from the forums for a bit.

I'm an instructor in Dallas. Here's the best advice I have- save the cash. I don't know anyone who has completed the ACE program, but THAT is the marketing ploy, not the type rating. You're paying for ground school- who cares?

The type rating isn't a solution for you, either. It is a valid type rating in the 500-series jet. It is 4 days. It is extremely intense; you're still held to the PTS and are therefore responsible for all of the systems knowlege... and Ernie is the examiner. Enough said.

A type-rating most certainly helps you get a job for a company that operates that equipment. Insurance is lower, which is the name of the game. But hey- the CE500 is a one-pilot plane- the 135 Ops 'book' for the company has to declare it a two-pilot machine. What if you're looking at a Part 91 job? Finally, corporate flight departments and fractionals do NOT hire F/Os. Ask any of the Options guys, they'll tell you that they hire captains only, especially since the 9/11 events and the doubling of insurance premiums.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Hey there Zack...

Thanks for the response. I'd love the opportunity to pick your brain a bit more... please e-mail me and let me know if I could give you a ring. I'm originally from Arlington and will be returning there @ the first of June, with the plan of starting ATP in July.

Thanks,

Bob

 

[Captain_Bob]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Oh yeah... if nothing else... maybe we can set up a play date for our kids! We had our first 14 months ago! Congrats on the birth of yours!

Bob

 

[BlueStreak]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

I would definately have to agree with what the others have been saying. Having attended a collegiate aviation program (and deciding to do my training elsewhere) I have seen many of my friends spend tons of money (40-50K) just to end up with the commercial multi-instrument. Like the others have said, get your ratings done at ATP (all the way through MEI) and find yourself a CFI job at ATP or some other FBO/School that has a good chance at building multi-time. I don't see any ACE program helping you, maybe in the hayday when the regionals were hiring with 500 total time and 100 multi, but as we can see those days are gone for quite some time - if not forever. Good luck with your decisions!

 

[Captain_Bob]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Bluestreak...

Read your post about your job situation... sorry to hear about that. Especially with Finals probably hitting right about now.

Just wanted to say good luck on your final semester. Keep us updated on what you decide to do for work after graduation.

Bob
PS: I'm from Michigan originally... Born in Lansing... raised in Grand Rapids, so I know what you meant when you talked about the weather. Actually, I'm currently in Maine now... You want to talk about weather!? I've got weather for you!

 

[BlueStreak]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Capt. Bob,

Thanks for the good wishes. As of right now I plan to use my free time to finish up my flight training. I should have the commercial checkride in just a week or two and then I am going immediately into the CFI (my next job hopefully!). As for losing my job a few weeks ago, I figure I might as well get used to it if I plan to have a career in aviation!

It's kind of a blessing in a way, let's me re-evaluate my current situation and get my goals straight. (not to mention the free time to fly!).

Happy Flying!

 

[MikeD]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

CE-500 type isn't going to do you any good, especially if you test to Commercial standards to get it. Now, if you got a job flying a Citation and had an ATP, or the hours to get one, then getting a Citation type to ATP standards would be the way to go.

When I was finishing Riddle, they came up with their own money-gouge flight class. They purchased a King Air C90 (which always seemed to be at Daytona, never at Prescott, and always seemed to be flown by the school bigwigs) and offered a program to get 10 hours in the plane and a high altitude signoff. I forget the exact cost, but it was significant (as is everything else there). Now realistically, what is 10 hours of C90 time and a high altitude signoff going to do for the newly minted CFI or Commercial Pilot? Not a damn thing. Complete waste of money. Better off to go for another rating, such as CFII, or invest in more hours and build your total time.

MD

 

[Hunter]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

[ QUOTE ]
You DO need to have both your ATP and a type rating to be a captain. Now, I'd bet that most people coming out of ATP don't have enough hours to get their ATP, so what the hell good is a type rating?

[/ QUOTE ]

? I am confused. Why would you have to have an ATP to be a captain on a citation 501?....its doubtful that we will be trying for a 121 carrier flying the citation.

 

[Hunter]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

[ QUOTE ]
CE-500 type isn't going to do you any good, especially if you test to Commercial standards to get it. Now, if you got a job flying a Citation and had an ATP, or the hours to get one, then getting a Citation type to ATP standards would be the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Type ratings are held to ATP standards not commercial standards even if you are a commercial pilot. So it doesn't matter if you have an atp or not. The type will upgrade with your new certificate when you go from commercial to ATP.

see 61.157 (d)
Upgrading Type Ratings
Any type ratings on the pilot certificate of an applicant who successfully completes an airline transport pilot practical test shall be included on the airline transport pilot certificate with the privileges and limitations of the airline transport pilot certificate, provided the applicant passes the practical test in the same category and class of aircraft for which the applicant holds the type....

So, if you want to get the citation type when your a private....you will have it on your atp when you get that certificate.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

[ QUOTE ]
I am confused. Why would you have to have an ATP to be a captain on a citation 501?....

[/ QUOTE ]

Because to act as PIC of a turbojet aircraft, under part 135, you must have your ATP. My mistake, I was thinking for some reason it was required under 91 too.

In any case, I think its a waste of $8000, but to each his own.

 

[sigmanu499]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

I had called Pan Am about the Air Crew Ed. program and got some interesting information. Yes it is only 3 weeks, but unless you have 200 multi hours you will need to buy their 80 hour multi program for some $7000. Plus you will need to but their 3 week CRM class, before you can take the Air Crew program, all together it takes along time and alot of money, And the guy I talked to didnt make it seem like the airline partners are doing any hiring. So, it seems to me that working as a CFI and builting your hours and then just apply on your own might be the better way. I think Comair has a similar program but dont know anything about it.

 

[Hunter]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

I agree that a type is only worth getting if you have a possibility of actually getting in the citation. However, if I had 8,000 to spend, I would much rather have the CE-500 type on my certificate than attend the Pan Am ACE training...

At least it would be a cool think to have on the certificates
( you could say you were an instructor in a jet!) And it would actually mean something on the resume...where the ACE looks good, but it just doesnt seem as concrete as the type rating to me.

 

[ananoman]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

I have a problem with the 4 day type rating. Like so much in aviation, you get what you pay for. Most initial type ratings take 2 weeks. Think about it. You have never flown a jet. Most people taking this have little experience or knowledge of jet systems. You will not know how to program the FMS. FMS training alone can take several days. So you pay your money and go. What do you get besides a headache? How much will you retain? Also if this is your initial type, you have to do some stuff in the actual aircraft, like a single engine ILS and some landings. I'll bet this is not included. Otherwise you get a restricted type rating until you meet all the requirements.

If you already have a type rating and jet experience, and are in a hurry, this program might be ok. It is cheap and fast. You would already know about jet operations and the FMS. It is a simple aircraft and you could probably get through everything fine. For the low time pilot, I think this would be a waste of money. Use the cash for getting your instructor ratings or maybe buy a little multi-time. If you already have that, spend some money on books like the Turbine Pilots Flight Manual, Handling the Big Jets by D.P. Davies, or Flying Jets by Pendleton. Then when you do go to fly a jet, you will know what is going on and how the systems work.

 

[Hunter]

Re: ATP Citation Type Rating or Pan-Am\'s ACE

Well, they are very selective about who can do the type rating. I do think that people who graduate from ATP's program are perfect for the type. They are used to not being spoon fead information, having to study on their own, and get it in the time specified. Single engine stuff is included in the actual jet, i knew someone who went through the type a few months ago and he did very well.

The citation is fairly simple in terms of avionics and systems when compared to the newer jets or even the CJ's.

Yes it is a very accelerated course, but I believe if the candidate is right for the program, you will leave being a qualified pilot in the citation. Atp does not conduct the checkride using a different PTS than flight safety or other flight schools. You still have to pass that ride with a fairly tough examiner.