ATP 90 day fast track vs Local FBO Part 61

rswitz

Well-Known Member
So I have my PPL and about 100 hours. Did my PPL at a local FBO and received great instruction, but I felt the pace was too slow. Goal is to go to the regional airlines but I'll take any flying job I can get once I've got my CPL. Part 91 stuff, charter etc.

So I'm basically all set to start ATP's 90 day program at FXE. Got the loan in order and even selected December 9th as my start date. I plan on driving down from CT (yeah, I know) on November 30th to build up my XC PIC. Need 25 and have 7.

The thing is, the little part 61 school that I trained with initially is now trying to convince me to ditch ATP and finish up my ratings with them. I loved my training and time with them and made a lot of great connections while I was there. I even interned at this place and got some cool perks.

My former instructor at this 61 school actually went to ATP and has nothing but horrible things to say about it. Stuff like its way too fast paced, you don't learn anything, high failure rate, CFI's are just kids who past (and failed) the rides a few months earlier, etc. Now, he's a great CFI and a great Pilot with thousands of hours logged, but he is hell bent on persuading me to avoid ATP. He even recommended other fast track type programs as an alternative, unrelated to his school. Seems he genuinely cares about my training and not just looking for my business.

He is offering me another "internship" type deal where I could get some nice benefits like discounted ground training and some free dead-heading flights logging PIC, in exchange for answering the phone and washing the occasional plane. Same thing I did before.

Whats more, he says he can finish me off (CFI and the add ons) for way less than the 55 grand ATP wants.

It seems pretty attractive, but my question is will I lose out on anything special provided by ATP? Airline opportunities, multi-time etc? I'll be able to get a ton of part-91 opportunities if I stay with the 61 school through all the connections I made.

I always hear ATP is the best place to go if I only want to go to the airlines. I definitely do want to go to the airlines, but will I have a much easier time getting there with ATP than with a small, local FBO?

Thanks a lot and sorry for the long essay.
 
if you have 100 hours and ATP wants 55 grand to get you to 250+CFI/II/MEI I say F*** that. 55 grand for 150 hours (plus ratings) is absolutely BONKERS
 
I think you already know the answer. Fast isn't necessarily better. And someone you know and like is going to give you better instruction. I certainly know the instruction my students get from me isn't about money or building hours, and they appreciate that.

At 100 hours, you can realistically can be a CFI for about another 20k. Probably less at local school cutting you some breaks.

I've flown with a lot of pilots, from very different backgrounds. The only thing I can tell you - where they learned has zero correlation with their skill.
 
where they learned has zero correlation with their skill.


Agreed. have met pilots from part 61 schools I do not want to share a cockpit with. have met pilots from riddle and UND who I don't even want to share airspace with. It all comes down to your instructor specifically, and your personal drive to excel in all you do, aviation or otherwise.
 
If you need to pay ATP a premium to motivate yourself to go to the airport frequently then yeah.
If financing is independent of ATP, then no.
 
I don't think the problem is motivation. I've got plenty of that. The problem is that with the part 61 school, there will be way less structure than with ATP. With ATP, I will definitely get all my ratings much faster and be getting paid and building hours faster.

But I fear I may not excel in the ATP training environment. All the check-rides are pre-scheduled and you're either ready or you fail. Definitely don't want a failed ride on my record when interviewing at the regionals.

I'm trying to figure out if the added cost, stress and risk of ATP is worth it. Because I also really do not want to be spending 3-4 months completing my IFR rating because the 61 school can't accommodate my schedule or go at the pace I want.

My motivation is high, but my progress will be inherently slower because of the slower training environment.
 
I don't think the problem is motivation. I've got plenty of that. The problem is that with the part 61 school, there will be way less structure than with ATP. With ATP, I will definitely get all my ratings much faster and be getting paid and building hours faster.

But I fear I may not excel in the ATP training environment. All the check-rides are pre-scheduled and you're either ready or you fail. Definitely don't want a failed ride on my record when interviewing at the regionals.

I'm trying to figure out if the added cost, stress and risk of ATP is worth it. Because I also really do not want to be spending 3-4 months completing my IFR rating because the 61 school can't accommodate my schedule or go at the pace I want.

My motivation is high, but my progress will be inherently slower because of the slower training environment.
I'll tell you what happened with my training. January 1st, I had 75 hours. I rented a 172 with a buddy and flew from Florida to CA and back. built 50 hours in 9 days.

came back, said screw it i need to fly at least 3 times if not 4 times a week. got my instrument rating probably around mid to late jan. kept flying 3 times a week or so and by april 9th I had my commercial single. april 16th I had my commercial multi Mind you I was working M-F 8-5. I flew at nights on the weekdays or whenever on the weekend.

Also please please please save yourself the trouble now. Make EVERY TIME BUILDING FLIGHT A XC. I got my commercial with around 255 TT and about 180XC. it'll save you SO much time in the future.

if you need to shoot approaches, fly 50 miles away, shoot a few, come back shoot a few. it'll add a little bit of time to your flight, but between instrument and commercial time in the aircraft is basically ALL you're doing.


Also let me stress this: If you find a place that lets you take the aircraft out of state, DO IT

DO IT DO IT DO IT. Try to put yourself in the most diverse types of situations you can (safely of course). Explore the country. Explore GA. Learn how weather patterns at your home region isn't the same as somewhere just as close as 100 miles away. Learn everything you can with every flight you take.




ok I talked way too much
 
Oh yeah, point of my story was, I went from 75 to 260 CSEL+CMEL in a part 61 while working 40 hours a week.


Also the result of my night training was that I have a • ton of night hours. I had 135/ATP mins for night before I had my commercial cert.
 
Thanks for the input! I bet that was a LONG trip in the 172 haha. Longest trip I've done in the 172 was from CT to Orlando, FL for Sun and fun. And back of course. I did that while still training for my PPL so it was all XC time but not PIC time. So I'm not sure how much that is worth.

So basically is your point that I should stick with the part 61 school or go ATP?
 
One more thing to add- "structure" isn't exactly a good thing. Once you get that Comm/CFI, it is suddenly you out there in the world, making decisions with no structure at all. You are in charge, you are making the rules, deciding when to tell people no.

A switch flips, and you now must be the one one making real decisions. Ones that might kill people. It is an awesome responsibility that should not be taken lightly.
 
One more thing to add- "structure" isn't exactly a good thing. Once you get that Comm/CFI, it is suddenly you out there in the world, making decisions with no structure at all. You are in charge, you are making the rules, deciding when to tell people no.

A switch flips, and you now must be the one one making real decisions. Ones that might kill people. It is an awesome responsibility that should not be taken lightly.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I have had the opportunity to work with some fellas that I can tell right off the bat have NEVER had to REALLY plan a XC. They always did what the 141 manual "approved" and thus, they had no idea what to look for in a fuel stop airport, no clue what type of facilities to think about for an overnight airport, no real experience with flying through weather because the 141 program had specific minimums and rules in place, and the list goes on.

I urge everyone to learn as much as they can, but time ALONE in the cockpit is some of the most valuable time there is. When there is no one there to hold your hand, no one there to fall back on, you are the PIC and it's your life, your certificate, in your hand.

So to sum it up, my vote goes for 61. Our country's GA is too much of a beautiful thing to completely overlook and pass over by going to a 141 program.


(also sidenote: if the instructor/school you're with allow grass landings, practice real soft fields... and real short fields (go land on a 1500 foot runway)) At first 1500 is short. soon you'll notice a 172 really doesn't need that much runway if you do it right.
 
Thanks for the input! I bet that was a LONG trip in the 172 haha. Longest trip I've done in the 172 was from CT to Orlando, FL for Sun and fun. And back of course. I did that while still training for my PPL so it was all XC time but not PIC time. So I'm not sure how much that is worth.
It was quite a long trip. Nowadays it's no biggie, you can get from san diego to ft lauderdale in 20 hours or so on a nice winter day (tailwinds!).

and yes your long xc counts if you think you learned something from it! Heck, even if you think you didn't, you did.
 
Humph. I've never been a fan of fast track anything. Do you want to be a good well rounded pilot? Or do you just want to be on a list ASAP? I've avoided these ATP threads as much as possible for my own sanity for a while. I'd just advise you to not buy into the hype. The airlines could care less where you train. They look at numbers and ratings.
 
They look at numbers and ratings.
In contrast, loan companies also look at numbers. but only what you owe them. they don't give a crap what your paycheck is, what your seniority is, what your rent costs, etc. they want their cut and that's it. make sure to factor that in your decision. a 50k loan will have a hefty monthly payment likely won't be affordable.

Let's not forget that when you DO get to the regionals however you plan to get there, first year pay is LESS than 2k after tax per month (it's more like 3/4 of that if I'm not mistaken). If your loan bill is 800 bucks, well crap, there's virtually half your paycheck......
 
From someone who has trained with and now instructs at a great local FBO and who has also trained with ATP, here is my two cents:

If time is critical to you... i.e., getting into the cockpit of an RJ as fast as you can, then ATP is probably your best bet. The climate is good for up and coming pilots right now. For someone looking to make a career in the airlines, I would say do what you need to do to get in the right seat as quick as you can so that you can ride the front of the hiring wave and be protected from furloughs in the future.

That being said, there is no right or wrong answer. Is ATP expensive? Absolutely. Can you do it for less? Absolutely. But that isn't what the company model is about and you need to know that going in. You are paying for the speed of the program and the fact that they will hire you and you will instruct for them, gain a lot of multi-time, and get to the regionals fast. If it is worth it to get there faster, then go for it.... If not, then go the FBO route.

In terms of the quality of training, don't listen to people that haven't attented the program (or even some that have but didn't put the effort in and failed as a result). Training is fully dependant on two things: Your own work ethic and the effort of your instructor. There are bad instructors everywhere.... local FBO's and ATP included. That doesn't mean every ATP instructor only cares about getting to 1500 and as a result provides poor instruction. I have read all the horror stories about ATP... "they only train to pass a checkride; you'll get no ground instruction etc etc etc..." I attended ATP at the Richmond, VA location and finished the career program two months ago (self-paced). I honestly believe I couldn't have received better instruction. My instructor went way out of his way to provide a lot of ground instruction, both individual and in a class settings. The other two instructors at this RIC location do the same. I have a full blog detailing my experience over the last nine months, and I was extremely satisfied. If you want insight into the program, it would be a good resource. The instructor I had for my private in 2010 at my local FBO (where I now instruct) is also very good... But I believe the instruction I received at ATP was better. As a result, I had zero checkride failures. Also, take into consideration that I did my CFI initial with an FAA Inspector, not a DPE. CFI Initials with the FAA run about a 70-80% failure rate. I was prepared because of my hard work ethic and because I had a great instructor.

Will this be the case with all ATP instructors? Of course not. There are instructors within ATP who won't do as good of a job. But remember, you are the customer. If you are having a issue with the instruction you are receiving, immediately request a change in instructors. You're paying a lot of money for this (either way you do it). If its not working, fix it. Same goes for any FBO/small flight school.

Also keep in mind, the easiest and arguably, best way to get to airline minimums is to instruct. You said you have Part 91 or 135 connections. Thats great and very well may be the best way for you to go... but make sure its flying time that the airlines are interested in. You'll need a minimuim of 100 multi-engine PIC to get hired by any regional. Towing banners or hauling small cardboard boxes in a C-182 will not necessarily help you get to the airlines. Remember... a certificate is a certificate. Airlines don't care where you got it. But they may be a little more picky about how you got the rest of your 1500 hours.

Bottom line is that you have to figure out what is best for you. But don't let anyone talk you into or out of either scenario. Neither are wrong. You have to decide which is better for you. Hopefully this helps a bit.

Mike
 
Also keep in mind, the easiest and arguably, best way to get to airline minimums is to instruct.
Disagree completely. I have a coworker who flew 160 hours in an aztec last month. I was down for 9 days in maintenance and I managed 105 hours.

Granted there are good and bad months at this job, but the numbers we get here beat any CFI job. Night, XC, IMC, TT, etc.

but compared to the skydiving/banner towing numbers, CFI is much much better, that much I'll agree on
You'll need a minimuim of 100 multi-engine PIC to get hired by any regional.
Most regionals have dropped to 50. small detail and I'm nitpicky but I had to
 
Granted there are good and bad months at this job, but the numbers we get here beat any CFI job. Night, XC, IMC, TT, etc.

@ elmetal:

What type of operation do you fly? Thats a lot of hours per month. Sounds like a good gig. I'd be interested if there was something similar in my area if I could find a way in.
 
@ elmetal:

What type of operation do you fly? Thats a lot of hours per month. Sounds like a good gig. I'd be interested if there was something similar in my area if I could find a way in.
we're one of the 5 pictometry vendors. We fly oblique imaging survey in 172s and aztecs

I'm with Air America but there is also: Landcare, Northern States, Desert Winds and in Canada they have First Base Solutions.

I do believe @pilotbry is the owner/manager/HR or something of Desert Winds but don't quote me on that.

It's a 7 month on the road type job so you don't really live at home for half a year. There are several other types of survey operators out there, whereabouts do you live?
 
It's a 7 month on the road type job so you don't really live at home for half a year. There are several other types of survey operators out there, whereabouts do you live?

I'm in Fredericksburg, Virginia. The 7 month on the road thing would be dicy... Just got married and bought a house. Looking to be at home at least a few days a week. But that sounds like a great opportunity for a single guy.

How do you like the Aztec? I may be instructing in one in the future.
 
Back
Top