ATP 90 day fast track vs Local FBO Part 61

Future Cpt Kirk said:
I'm in Fredericksburg, Virginia. The 7 month on the road thing would be dicy... Just got married and bought a house. Looking to be at home at least a few days a week. But that sounds like a great opportunity for a single guy.

How do you like the Aztec? I may be instructing in the future.
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I love it. a lot of power, but it's a huge hangar queen. But that's ok I love it nonetheless.

It's a great airplane to fly. it performs beautifully. I can be off the ground in ~2000ft here at 5000ft elevation. climb performance could be better but the thing I like is that no matter how light or loaded you are, it still performs.

Oh, bladder tanks suck.

Have you looked into keystone out of PNE? It's not exactly close as it is in Northeast Philly, but I think they have a rotation schedule (i.e. 7on7/off) so that wouldn't be too too bad. I honestly don't know much about them other than they exist and operate out of philly.

I don't know too much east coast stuff, there is some cargo stuff out there like fedex and ups feeders if you'd be interested in that route.
 
rswitz said:
The problem is that with the part 61 school, there will be way less structure than with ATP. With ATP, I will definitely get all my ratings much faster and be getting paid and building hours faster.
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*face palm*

To the OP. Have you ACTUALLY done a cost analysis (e.g. solid soul searching inside your wallet), to determine what would be the better savings?

55k to get 150 hours and some ratings so you can get paid "faster". Hmm. I'll tell you, when I went to ATP I spent less than 50k and I started at zero hours, granted that was a couple years ago and their business model has changed slightly since then I'm sure.

So, how much extra are you going to save doing it at the mom & pop? Does getting paid poverty wages 6 months, 1 year, or even 18 months SOONER because you went to ATP offset the perceived gain and the increased debt? No way. You just set yourself back if you went that route.

Another worthy footnote, the kind of networking you will be doing at the mom & pop can't be done at a school like ATP. For starters, your too busy to be "networking" with anyone while grinding it out at ATP. Also, at ATP you are surrounded by people at YOUR level, not above. Even the instructors could hardly get jobs anywhere else until they build up enough hours to move on to the regionals, or at best another flight school. Your're just one step behind them. They can't get you jobs, or lead you to connections that they haven't yet built up for themselves.

As far as "structure" goes, I do not really think there is a big difference. The "structure" is purely based off of the FAR's. 250 hours, is 250 hours. The mom & pop shouldn't stop you from being able to qualify for the ratings, so long as you meet the regulated requirements. ATP and every other flight school out there uses the same PTS, FAA publications, and written test preps to get you from point A to B. The reason ATP is going to charge you 55k is because their program is designed for someone with zero hours (or someone who JUST obtained their private cert). Due to that fact, you will be charged extra because they have to make a special exception for you and figure out how to squeeze what you have already done into their structure. I'm sure you are going to do extra flights with them (which aren't REQUIRED by the regs) because they don't have a way of effectively changing their lesson structure just for you. ATP's shtick is that you pay a premium to get the training done in the minimum amount of time possible, which includes flying 7 days a week if possible, and always having a plane to fly. That does not mean it's the best, or the only way to get it done. Again, you are paying a premium for being able to fly 7 days a week. Just get your head in the game and get it done already. Push yourself, call your instructor and tell him your ready to get it busted out. Since he went to ATP he should know exactly what needs to be done to get you through your training expediently.
 
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Thanks for all the replies guys, I have made my final decision. I will be attending ATP at FXE (Fort Lauderdale Executive) on November 25th for the 90 day fast track program. Will do some time building in Jacksonville starting the 18th before continuing down to FXE.

So I'm beginning my long road trip from Lower CT to Jacksonville dead early tomorrow morning. Plan on arriving in JAX sometime Saturday night. Wish me luck, as I'm doing this drive alone.

Sunday 8 AM I've got a time building flight in a brand new Piper Archer from Jacksonville to Dallas. Have no idea where I'm going after that but I suppose thats all part of the mystery.

My only thought as of now is I've never flown a Piper Archer before. Only Cessna variants. (172 SP G1000 and 1966 C150 with a lot of INOP stickers)

So realistically should I be able to transition to the low-wing Archer in time to really benefit from the flight?

Thanks.
 
Calvin and Hobbs Meter said:
*face palm*

To the OP. Have you ACTUALLY done a cost analysis (e.g. solid soul searching inside your wallet), to determine what would be the better savings?

55k to get 150 hours and some ratings so you can get paid "faster". Hmm. I'll tell you, when I went to ATP I spent less than 50k and I started at zero hours, granted that was a couple years ago and their business model has changed slightly since then I'm sure.

So, how much extra are you going to save doing it at the mom & pop? Does getting paid poverty wages 6 months, 1 year, or even 18 months SOONER because you went to ATP offset the perceived gain and the increased debt? No way. You just set yourself back if you went that route.

Another worthy footnote, the kind of networking you will be doing at the mom & pop can't be done at a school like ATP. For starters, your too busy to be "networking" with anyone while grinding it out at ATP. Also, at ATP you are surrounded by people at YOUR level, not above. Even the instructors could hardly get jobs anywhere else until they build up enough hours to move on to the regionals, or at best another flight school. Your're just one step behind them. They can't get you jobs, or lead you to connections that they haven't yet built up for themselves.

As far as "structure" goes, I do not really think there is a big difference. The "structure" is purely based off of the FAR's. 250 hours, is 250 hours. The mom & pop shouldn't stop you from being able to qualify for the ratings, so long as you meet the regulated requirements. ATP and every other flight school out there uses the same PTS, FAA publications, and written test preps to get you from point A to B. The reason ATP is going to charge you 55k is because their program is designed for someone with zero hours (or someone who JUST obtained their private cert). Due to that fact, you will be charged extra because they have to make a special exception for you and figure out how to squeeze what you have already done into their structure. I'm sure you are going to do extra flights with them (which aren't REQUIRED by the regs) because they don't have a way of effectively changing their lesson structure just for you. ATP's shtick is that you pay a premium to get the training done in the minimum amount of time possible, which includes flying 7 days a week if possible, and always having a plane to fly. That does not mean it's the best, or the only way to get it done. Again, you are paying a premium for being able to fly 7 days a week. Just get your head in the game and get it done already. Push yourself, call your instructor and tell him your ready to get it busted out. Since he went to ATP he should know exactly what needs to be done to get you through your training expediently.
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Yes, I have done a cost analysis. While the actual cost may be similar or greater with ATP as compared to a Mom n Pop place, time is a huge factor for me. I chose ATP because I will go there, put my head down, no distractions since I'm away from home, work incredibly hard and bang out my ratings and become a CFI. I'm aware I can do that at the local FBO, but I feel like I'll be in a better position to do it the "fast track" way if I simply just go to ATP, as opposed to trying to replicate the ATP program at a part 61 school.

As far as paying a premium for the ability to fly 7 days / week, that is true for aircraft and instructor availability and from a maintenance perspective, but the biggest factor in being able to fly is still the weather. Can't pay for perfect weather unless you're in a sim.
 
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marketing rules them all then huh? a decent 61 school can have you from 100 to commercial in less than 2 months. add a month at american flyers for cfi.

but to each his own. Good luck OP, and don't worry, low wing, high wing is MOSTLY the same.

You'll notice a huge difference when:

  • in ground effect
  • you chop power (pipers drop like rocks)
  • high speed taxi/rollout on landing.
  • landings are almost always the same regardless of what you do. struts vs springythings
Something about pipers makes high speed taxi really odd. Now I'm not saying go down the taxiway at 40-50 knots, I'm saying after you land when you're slowing down, the nosewheel just behaves differently than in a cessna. I said this in another thread recently, it reminds me of TW and how you have to 'stay on top of it'.

It's hard to explain but you'll see what I'm talking about when you fly it. Maybe my current plane does this more than an archer would. haven't flown piper singles in at least 2 years and I drink a lot so my memory isn't the greatest.

Good luck! And watch for cops in VA, and GA. i95 is littered with them at state lines. in NC speed limits are minimums not maximums.

if you make it to the rockies, holla!
 
elmetal said:
marketing rules them all then huh? a decent 61 school can have you from 100 to commercial in less than 2 months. add a month at american flyers for cfi.

but to each his own. Good luck OP, and don't worry, low wing, high wing is MOSTLY the same.

You'll notice a huge difference when:

  • in ground effect
  • you chop power (pipers drop like rocks)
  • high speed taxi/rollout on landing.
  • landings are almost always the same regardless of what you do. struts vs springythings
Something about pipers makes high speed taxi really odd. Now I'm not saying go down the taxiway at 40-50 knots, I'm saying after you land when you're slowing down, the nosewheel just behaves differently than in a cessna. I said this in another thread recently, it reminds me of TW and how you have to 'stay on top of it'.

It's hard to explain but you'll see what I'm talking about when you fly it. Maybe my current plane does this more than an archer would. haven't flown piper singles in at least 2 years and I drink a lot so my memory isn't the greatest.

Good luck! And watch for cops in VA, and GA. i95 is littered with them at state lines. in NC speed limits are minimums not maximums.

if you make it to the rockies, holla!
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Thanks man! Good advice on the Archer, I'll keep that in mind. And yeah I heard anything over 80 MPH in VA is considered reckless driving. Thats a little insane considering here in the NYC metro area where I live, literally EVERYONE on the highways drive over 80 mph all the time. More like 90-100 even on 95. On the LIE, forget about it.

And I'll be sure to have some fun in NC ;)
 
Keep us posted on how training goes... I've been considering ATP for a while now. Currently sitting around 80 hours.

Best of Luck!
 
I've ever met two pilots that trained at ATP and in my view they were not so good. One of them barely knew how to operate his comm radios and this particular fellow once got lost at an airport out of which he had flown several times. ATP may train you quickly if you want it strongly enough (most likely why they charge you so much also), but keep in mind that the accelerated pace of the training will highly affect how much you can learn in such a limited span of time, and will make you miss out on many important concepts that you would have caught on to if you hadn't rushed through it all. Giving yourself time to build perceptions and insights is of utmost importance, and can't be stressed enough.

Don't hasten through your training. Train at a decent pace and make sure that you pick up on things decently in one round before you move onto the next. It's not a race, dang it.
 
Go with a local part 61. If your instructor won't fly as frequently as you want to, find a new instructor.

Flying with a local part 61 will let you take charge of your training, instead of being a product on an assembly line.
 
rswitz said:
Yes, I have done a cost analysis. While the actual cost may be similar or greater with ATP as compared to a Mom n Pop place, time is a huge factor for me. I chose ATP because I will go there, put my head down, no distractions since I'm away from home, work incredibly hard and bang out my ratings and become a CFI. I'm aware I can do that at the local FBO, but I feel like I'll be in a better position to do it the "fast track" way if I simply just go to ATP, as opposed to trying to replicate the ATP program at a part 61 school.

As far as paying a premium for the ability to fly 7 days / week, that is true for aircraft and instructor availability and from a maintenance perspective, but the biggest factor in being able to fly is still the weather. Can't pay for perfect weather unless you're in a sim.
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Hey, How did you like ATP? I'm Graduating from College in about 6 months and if I can't get a slot in the Air Force I'm thinking of going to ATP at Fort Lauderdale.
 
I went to ATP back in the day. Had 85 hours in various singles and some tailwheel experience, but nothing serious. Chose it because it was the quickest way to get where I wanted and I didn't have the cash to pay for training elsewhere. ATP hooked me up with dear aunt Sallie and 90 days later I was a MEII with no problem getting a flying job. The bad thing about ATP was that a lot of people failed out. That being said, most of them deserved to fail. The training definitely prepared me for future training in various commercial operations where there are no second chances, as they are paying you to pass first attempt. The other negative is the cost, its pretty expensive.
When I attended the KDAB location I drove back and forth from my house, so my personal expenses were somewhat higher than that of the average student living in the provided housing. At the time I think the full cost was around $30K.

That being said, the best thing about the program was unlimited use of the sim. I would go in the sim at night or whenever no training was scheduled and practice flows and maneuvers repeatedly until I couldn't sit anymore. Usually I did this while everyone else was out at the bar, haha. That I think was the best part of it. Also, I did the King School interactive software to not only pass the writtens, but to LEARN THE INFORMATION. Most guys go through the GLEIM books and memorize the test, that, I think, is a hindrance to actually learning the material. Dont expect good ground instruction there, but the flight instruction I thought was mostly top notch. Then again, maybe I got lucky!
 
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