ATC privatization bill thrown out

CTI def does better at the Academy than OTS. And they should. The CTI schools teach using the same map and similar scenarios as the academy. They teach you how to pass the academy. But that is a big difference compared to being a controller. As for washout numbers after the Academy, I can't find the link now but there was something like a 2% difference in favor of CTI over OTS in certification. Not a big enough difference to warrant only hiring CTI over the GenPub pool of candidates imo. (I still think the FAA totally effed CTI students with how they implemented the hiring change though). And that 2/3rds number within 90 days I am willing to bet money on is completely made up BS.
 
Flyboy57 said:
I've heard that but never seen anyone produce the statistics. I'm basing my opinion on the word of a good friend who taught at the academy at OKC. He said there was a a marked difference in the CTI grads vs. off-the-street. I was told 2/3rds of the off-the-streets in the group hired last spring washed out within 90 days.
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Yes, the new off the street hiring is bogus because it is based on a biographical questionnaire instead of actual qualifications. I've heard stories of classes that started with 18 new hires and only graduated 2. When I went through en route school we had one drop out early in basics and he was replaced by a CTI grad and he was one of the weakest in the class. The problem with CTI is there was no standardization between schools, and some were very thorough with simulators and I know of one that actually operates a contract tower, and some put you through what amounted to a PPL ground school and that was it.

The people who have a right to be pissed are the VRA hires that got dropped before they even got classes, or the people who joined the military thinking they'd be able to get hiring preference after being certified controllers and serving their country. They are the ones who really got screwed.
 
The majority of academy washouts in my fiancé's class were cti students. The majority of passing students were OTS hires...

Guess she was the exception.



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Mil controllers got screwed with the first round of Bio Q when the whole thing was jacked. But they fixed it for this last prior experience bid and I haven't heard of any mil getting DQ'd by the bio q now. Additionally they now place the prior experienced hires at facilities based on their experience, rather then sending tower only people to level 12 tracons like they used to.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Mil controllers got screwed with the first round of Bio Q when the whole thing was jacked. But they fixed it for this last prior experience bid and I haven't heard of any mil getting DQ'd by the bio q now. Additionally they now place the prior experienced hires at facilities based on their experience, rather then sending tower only people to level 12 tracons like they used to.
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Progress! Now if they could only drop the BQ and fix the selection process for civilians, that'd be great.
 
NovemberEcho said:
CTI def does better at the Academy than OTS. And they should. The CTI schools teach using the same map and similar scenarios as the academy. They teach you how to pass the academy. But that is a big difference compared to being a controller. As for washout numbers after the Academy, I can't find the link now but there was something like a 2% difference in favor of CTI over OTS in certification. Not a big enough difference to warrant only hiring CTI over the GenPub pool of candidates imo. (I still think the FAA totally effed CTI students with how they implemented the hiring change though). And that 2/3rds number within 90 days I am willing to bet money on is completely made up BS.
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My school did not use the same maps in the simulator. They may have attempted to teach how to pass the academy, yet when your Firm Offer Letter comes three years after you graduated, what good is that information? I would love to check out the link your referring to, as long as the URL does not begin with stuckmic. Recent correspondence from NATCA (2/25/16) seems to insinuate reinstating preference for CTI's. When your getting thousands of OTS application, why would the union bother to push to reinstate the CTI program?
 
NovemberEcho said:
CTI def does better at the Academy than OTS. And they should. The CTI schools teach using the same map and similar scenarios as the academy. They teach you how to pass the academy. But that is a big difference compared to being a controller. As for washout numbers after the Academy, I can't find the link now but there was something like a 2% difference in favor of CTI over OTS in certification. Not a big enough difference to warrant only hiring CTI over the GenPub pool of candidates imo. (I still think the FAA totally effed CTI students with how they implemented the hiring change though). And that 2/3rds number within 90 days I am willing to bet money on is completely made up BS.
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Wait, if the washout numbers after academy are the same, but the CTI guys are more likely to pass the academy, doesn't it still make more sense to hire CTI guys?
 
No not just CTI in lieu of Ots. I think the people that were CTI during during the hiring change should be given preference because the FAA shafted them pretty good, but otherwise I don't think so. At least not with how CTI was/is currently run. Unless they are going to standardize the CTI program across all the schools and send them direct to their facility, i think it's a waste.
 
Roger Roger said:
Wait, if the washout numbers after academy are the same, but the CTI guys are more likely to pass the academy, doesn't it still make more sense to hire CTI guys?
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I would argue it makes sense just because they showed the initiative to get the CTI degree which means they are very likely to take whatever the FAA gives them in terms of position and location. Sort of like how a little flight time to show initiative can go a long way with a police or National Guard air unit. I've been hearing about lots of people bailing out when they find out they got Grand Forks tower or something of the like. As it stands right now, candidates are finding out where they are going very, very late in their time at OKC and very shortly before they are expected to move. I'm talking well inside of 3 weeks sometimes. Throw that in with the fact that transfers within the FAA are apparently frozen due to staffing, and you could be stuck where you're assigned for a long while depending how things go from here.

For the standard person off the street, this is shenanigans. However, if you're in debt over a CTI degree and all your eggs are in the ATC basket, you'll likely take Grand Forks Tower 2 weeks from now with a smile on your face.
 
CTI was pay to play, it is as simple as that. You paid for a degree that guaranteed you nothing but hiring preference. May as well have just paid that money directly to the FAA. That is wrong, and that is why the hiring practice was changed. Again, I am sorry you got screwed if you were one of those people, but the fact of the matter is that no amount of education is going to prepare you for this job besides actually being in the field and doing it. I was an OTS hire. If CTI was the only way to get hired when I did, I'd be doing something else now, because I sure as hell wouldn't pay $30,000 for an associates degree that did nothing for me if I was never hired or couldn't make it through training. The risk vs. reward was way too great, those CTI graduates that got dropped found out the hard way, but the risk was always there.
 
The only advantage I saw in the CTI program is as Chasen said above, they literally had all their eggs in one basket and would try as hard as possible to make it in the FAA. The problem I have seen with OTS hires are they go to OKC and even if they pass if they don't like where they are going, they just quit. They had nothing invested but a few months in OKC that was paid for. This has done nothing to help hard to staff facilities. The CTI program brought in people that wanted to be controllers, not just people that wanted a job. From there it is really a crap shoot if you will make it or not. No schooling with help you with it. It all comes from personality traits and critical thinking ability. This is what the FAA has struggled to test for and have changed the AT-SAT and other entrance tests to try and be able to measure. I don't think OTS is the way to go, you do find ones capable of doing the job, but I want ones that are willing to fight for the job as well.
 
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Flyboy57 said:
I've heard that but never seen anyone produce the statistics. I'm basing my opinion on the word of a good friend who taught at the academy at OKC. He said there was a a marked difference in the CTI grads vs. off-the-street. I was told 2/3rds of the off-the-streets in the group hired last spring washed out within 90 days.
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I'm telling you, from real life working at two facilities, that the OTS hires have done better from what I've seen.l, but it comes down to the ability and desire of the individual not whether they could afford to pay for an ATC simulator degree.
 
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klkm said:
The only advantage I saw in the CTI program is as Chasen said above, they literally had all their eggs in one basket and would try as hard as possible to make it in the FAA. The problem I have seen with OTS hires are they go to OKC and even if they pass if they don't like where they are going, they just quit. They had nothing invested but a few months in OKC that was paid for. This has done nothing to help hard to staff facilities. The CTI program brought in people that wanted to be controllers, not just people that wanted a job. From there it is really a crap shoot if you will make it or not. No schooling with help you with it. It all comes from personality traits and critical thinking ability. This is what the FAA has struggled to test for and have changed the AT-SAT and other entrance tests to try and be able to measure. I don't think OTS is the way to go, you do find ones capable of doing the job, but I want ones that are willing to fight for the job as well.
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So change it back to where new hires know where they're going pending successful completion of the academy. The new ERR process is an absolute joke (hundreds with ERRs in and yet all but 66 are frozen at their current facility and the ones eligible don't have to be selected by the facility they can be released to). The problem is we need thousands and thousands of new hires, but the agency didn't have the foresight/ability/desire/whatever to hire and train the number of controllers needed for the past 6-10 years to alleviate staffing issues now. Look at N90 as an example of a complete lack of planning to staff. They're projected to be at 48% of their agency required staffing by the end of 2017.
 
RobertB said:
So change it back to where new hires know where they're going pending successful completion of the academy. The new ERR process is an absolute joke (hundreds with ERRs in and yet all but 66 are frozen at their current facility and the ones eligible don't have to be selected by the facility they can be released to). The problem is we need thousands and thousands of new hires, but the agency didn't have the foresight/ability/desire/whatever to hire and train the number of controllers needed for the past 6-10 years to alleviate staffing issues now. Look at N90 as an example of a complete lack of planning to staff. They're projected to be at 48% of their agency required staffing by the end of 2017.
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I imagine part of the N90 problem is the facility culture there. Some of the older controllers had a hard time when they were in training, so to make it "even" they train others so it's just as, if not more, difficult. If that mindset sticks around, it just gets more and more difficult to get anyone through the program.
Sure there was more air traffic years ago, but there was less rules to worry about.
 
Stinger said:
I imagine part of the N90 problem is the facility culture there. Some of the older controllers had a hard time when they were in training, so to make it "even" they train others so it's just as, if not more, difficult. If that mindset sticks around, it just gets more and more difficult to get anyone through the program.
Sure there was more air traffic years ago, but there was less rules to worry about.
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Those are just rumors. Also back in the White Book day if you washed out the ATM at the time wouldn't recommend you for retention so you'd be fired. The people here have been the best trainers I've had in my career. N90's problem is a lot of people genuinely just can't do it, and a lack of qualified people wanting to come here. The only way N90 will solve (or at least help) it's staffing is if it's moved off of Long Island.
 
Man oh man you Americans are solidly stuck 20 years ago in the ATC world.

Privatization would have saved you, not doomed you.

Increased safety, less waste, higher wages and better technology.

Setup properly, it's a better system.

Moot point, keep wallowing in the dark ages listening to the trilobites scream about how "dangerous" privatization is.
 
Well you're comparing European privatization compared to American privatization. We don't have the labor protections that most of Europe has. The end all be all in America is profit before results. And on a more practical scale, it's far easier to have a private ATC company working, say Germany or Spain, compared to all of the US. We have far more airspace and general aviation than Europe does. Plus, y'all go on strike all the time and have been bailed out by various governments so it can't be all good.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Those are just rumors. Also back in the White Book day if you washed out the ATM at the time wouldn't recommend you for retention so you'd be fired. The people here have been the best trainers I've had in my career. N90's problem is a lot of people genuinely just can't do it, and a lack of qualified people wanting to come here. The only way N90 will solve (or at least help) it's staffing is if it's moved off of Long Island.
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I'm not at N90, but I've seen it first hand at other facilities. Some controllers have struggled in training for a mix of reasons (more traffic, worse equipment, different supervisors, different procedures, etc...) I have seen those same people that are training others now and their mentality is "I had a tough time in training, I have to make sure my trainees have the same experience, they'll thank me for it later." That's not the way to do it.

NovemberEcho said:
Well you're comparing European privatization compared to American privatization. We don't have the labor protections that most of Europe has. The end all be all in America is profit before results. And on a more practical scale, it's far easier to have a private ATC company working, say Germany or Spain, compared to all of the US. We have far more airspace and general aviation than Europe does. Plus, y'all go on strike all the time and have been bailed out by various governments so it can't be all good.
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I'm pretty sure he's a Canadian controller. I can't recall if they've ever had a strike or not.
 
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