ATC phraseology question for you smart people.

[Crockrocket94]

Hey anyone working Potomac around BWI?

Anyhow, climbing out on the ol Terpz going through 3600ft, about to level at 4000 as per the clearance, I called at and stated XXY leveling at 4000 on the terpz. The controller came back and asked what altitude I was at, it was now 3900 ft. and I said leveling 4000. He said - he had to know within 300 ft of what altitude I was at so I said 3910 ft leveling at 4000. His scope was about 5 seconds behind my actual altitude at that point. And we rarely ever level at 4000, so I was trying to get higher. Thats beside the point, Ive never had a controller come back and say I had to say 3.7 for 4000 or something. Usually if I was literally in ALT capture and the plane was pitching over for the altitude I would just state leveling at whatever... this guy wasn't having it today. Whats up with that?

 

[BigZ]

Heard that elsewhere for 200 ft. Think it was below RVSM too. Like 18700something climbing 230 and the ATC gave PM hard time for "190 climbing 230"

 

[Space Monkey]

Hey anyone working Potomac around BWI?

Anyhow, climbing out on the ol Terpz going through 3600ft, about to level at 4000 as per the clearance, I called at and stated XXY leveling at 4000 on the terpz. The controller came back and asked what altitude I was at, it was now 3900 ft. and I said leveling 4000. He said - he had to know within 300 ft of what altitude I was at so I said 3910 ft leveling at 4000. His scope was about 5 seconds behind my actual altitude at that point. And we rarely ever level at 4000, so I was trying to get higher. Thats beside the point, Ive never had a controller come back and say I had to say 3.7 for 4000 or something. Usually if I was literally in ALT capture and the plane was pitching over for the altitude I would just state leveling at whatever... this guy wasn't having it today. Whats up with that?

Jerry is the new norm, bro. Do what Jerry would do! Per the jAIM say, "three point seven for four"... then blow through 4 pitching sixty and rolling fiddy fife with the stall horn annunciating. Lol

Old school, established and correct procedures and radio calls are sooooo structurally and implicitly racist; They just support the dominant paradigm and whatnot. They might even prevent neophytes from achieving $150K jobs before their 26th birthdays!!!

Point B: at three something climbing four, you ain't nowhere near RVSM airspace, so, you know, don't get your panties in a twist, ATC!

I'd chalk this up to "a bad day at TRACON". (which might be a great title for a post Covid theatre movie release)

 

[NovemberEcho]

Sounds like someone a little to big on the letter of the .65 and not the intent. Technically if whatever altitude you say you’re at is 300’ or more off than what we see we are supposed to do some stuff to validate mode c. This is pointless when you’re climbing/descending generally because of the delay.

 

[awair]

In UK, the requirement is to report cleared altitude/level on first contact.

Didn't realise it was different. I normally call “approaching” or “reaching”, if we need further climb or descent.

Anyway, with current status it’s not a problem, “maintaining FL 000”.

Have fun, fly safe.

 

[Crockrocket94]

Sounds like someone a little to big on the letter of the .65 and not the intent. Technically if whatever altitude you say you’re at is 300’ or more off than what we see we are supposed to do some stuff to validate mode c. This is pointless when you’re climbing/descending generally because of the delay.

I figured the guy just has some bad cheerios or something that morning. I see his point, but he also knows what I am doing because EVERY plane is given the same exact clearance off that runway. I felt like being a bit granular with him as well because he knew what I was doing...

 

[deadstick]

Sounds like someone a little to big on the letter of the .65 and not the intent. Technically if whatever altitude you say you’re at is 300’ or more off than what we see we are supposed to do some stuff to validate mode c. This is pointless when you’re climbing/descending generally because of the delay.

How does it work in training? Isn’t a sim used in OKC? Do the climbing/descending altitudes always match the screen?

 

[NovemberEcho]

How does it work in training? Isn’t a sim used in OKC? Do the climbing/descending altitudes always match the screen?

what do you mean do the always match? There’s no real plane so there’s no delay so the “pilot” just reads whatever altitude they see their blip at

 

[deadstick]

what do you mean do the always match? There’s no real plane so there’s no delay so the “pilot” just reads whatever altitude they see their blip at

That sounds like what I was asking about. I was thinking the controller in question came out of the sim where everything was matchy-matchy as opposed to real world. That plane climbing out at 3000 fpm is 50 ft/sec. In the time it takes to transmit a message and the radar lag, that’s a couple hundred feet.

 

[NovemberEcho]

That sounds like what I was asking about. I was thinking the controller in question came out of the sim where everything was matchy-matchy as opposed to real world. That plane climbing out at 3000 fpm is 50 ft/sec. In the time it takes to transmit a message and the radar lag, that’s a couple hundred feet.

it’s possible. Pilots also get complacent with this sometimes and round off, it’s not uncommon for me to see someone descending out of 12,500 and they check in leaving 13,000. It’s possible he had a string of these rounds offs and he took it out on someone else. Or he was just having a bad day.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

it’s possible. Pilots also get complacent with this sometimes and round off, it’s not uncommon for me to see someone descending out of 12,500 and they check in leaving 13,000. It’s possible he had a string of these rounds offs and he took it out on someone else. Or he was just having a bad day.

One fine day we were empty climbing wrong direction out of Rochester- doing some 7-8000fpm.

As we were climbing through 6000ft for 10000 they gave us a “amend climb, maintain 4000...

“Do you want us to descend back to 4000?” Query because the level off was still going to put us up near 8,000 ft, and still possibly relocate the mini’s to the floor... result was still a bit of a disaster because the descent put us back into the guy he was trying to level us off for.

How much of a lag is there in the mode S days?


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[NovemberEcho]

How much of a lag is there in the mode S days?

at that rate of climb we probably don’t even see your altitude, just “xxx”. I don’t know what the rate of climb has to be to trigger that but I’ve seen it with fighters and empty FedEx/ups. I had a nasty deal thanks to an empty FedEx out climbing the previous departure by several thousand feet a minute. But figure we get an update every 1-3 seconds, so on a standard climb/descend maybe a couple hundred feet if that.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

at that rate of climb we probably don’t even see your altitude, just “xxx”. I don’t know what the rate of climb has to be to trigger that but I’ve seen it with fighters and empty FedEx/ups. I had a nasty deal thanks to an empty FedEx out climbing the previous departure by several thousand feet a minute. But figure we get an update every 1-3 seconds, so on a standard climb/descend maybe a couple hundred feet if that.

Makes sense... guy was clearly confused when we asked if he wanted us to descend back down to 4...


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[Prino]

Could have had a supe behind him giving him a skilllzzz check/check ride as well

 

[Space Monkey]

it’s possible. Pilots also get complacent with this sometimes and round off, it’s not uncommon for me to see someone descending out of 12,500 and they check in leaving 13,000. It’s possible he had a string of these rounds offs and he took it out on someone else. Or he was just having a bad day.

So then, maybe that's the real question, as well as the real simple question: ...How specific do you controllers want us pilots to be?

Close enough?
Pretty darned close?
Transitionally dead balls on?
Anticipatorily dead balls on?

 

[Space Monkey]

Could have had a supe behind him giving him a skilllzzz check/check ride as well

Uuuuh huuuh huh heh heh!... you said "skillz"

 

[NovemberEcho]

So then, maybe that's the real question, as well as the real simple question: ...How specific do you controllers want us pilots to be?

Close enough?
Pretty darned close?
Transitionally dead balls on?
Anticipatorily dead balls on?

in a climb/descent, close enough. Level? Balls on to the nearest hundred

 

[Prino]

So then, maybe that's the real question, as well as the real simple question: ...How specific do you controllers want us pilots to be?

Close enough?
Pretty darned close?
Transitionally dead balls on?
Anticipatorily dead balls on?

Close enough to +\- 300’ is usually good enough. If you’re in level flight and closer than not to the 300’ off mark don’t be surprised if you get questioned compared to climbing or descending. Usually the ones who are way off are the weekend warriors just out for a sight seeing flight

 

[Fixtur]

Also, I've noticed in more than a few of the small GA planes Ive rented that the altitude encoder on the ancient Mode C is not up to the task and is off by several hundred feet and floating a bit.

Its happened enough that when I get an unsolicited barometer reading (ie "hey buddy watch your altitude"), I'll ask what altitude he's seeing on his screen so we can compare and I can hopefully reassure him that it's the encoder and not me.


Fix

 

[Roger Roger]

Also, I've noticed in more than a few of the small GA planes Ive rented that the altitude encoder on the ancient Mode C is not up to the task and is off by several hundred feet and floating a bit.

Fix

They should not pass their 24 month transponder check in that case.