ATA discontinues all operations

[wheelsup]

Before 9/11, pilots were still making about 60-70% of what pilots made in the '70s when accounting for inflation. That's not exactly "having management by the gonads."

And mail pilots in the 30's made $1,000,000/year adjusted for inflation. Pay has been on a downward slide since, well, the beginning.

Do you not think pilots are deserving of above average compensation when compared to most Americans? How does our experience and responsibility compare to most other occupations?

No, I don't think pilots are deserving of the Pre-9/11 pay rates at the top when I look at it objectively. In fact I view the current top-end CA pay scale as probably the most justifiable pay band. $120k - $180k/yr. FO pay though is much, much too low. The pay is way too uneven throughout the entire industry. As the joke goes "the bigger the plane the easier it is" has some truth to it.

I'm not saying I wouldn't fight for better pay but it's just my personal opinion that airline pilots at the top end at the legacies were over compensated compared to their peers. This is a compliment, I'm not looking down on those people. I think it's awesome they were able to obtain those pay rates. Unfortunately referencing my Skybus comment I have my doubts that we'll be able to see them again.

Common misconception. Senior Captains do not lead the union. There are a lot more mid-seniority guys in leadership positions than senior guys.

"Mid seniority" folks are still at the top end of the majors pay scales at most companies.

I really hope that was a joke.

Nope, just reality, unfortunately.

OK, done editing.

 

[tonyw]

Man, with some of the attitudes I've seen here, I'm damn glad I'm not getting into this industry.

Where else would you find the rank and file say, yup, we're overpaid?

You've got athletes saying they're insulted by contracts that pay more in a year than the stereotypical 747 captain would make in ten.

And do the rest of the folks playing with them say shut up and take the contract?

Nope, they back him.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And mail pilots in the 30's made $1,000,000/year adjusted for inflation. Pay has been on a downward slide since, well, the beginning.

Not really true. The first air mail pilots made that much money because there was an extremely high probability of death. The only way to attract pilots was to pay that much. But from the 40s-70s, pay was on a constant upward trend thanks to ALPA's hard work. After deregulation, the downward slide began.

No, I don't think pilots are deserving of the Pre-9/11 pay rates at the top when I look at it objectively. In fact I view the current top-end CA pay scale as probably the most justifiable pay band. $120k - $180k/yr.

I find that disgusting, but if you value yourself so little, then that's up to you. Just please stay the hell away from my airline.

FO pay though is much, much too low. The pay is way too uneven throughout the entire industry. As the joke goes "the bigger the plane the easier it is" has some truth to it.

We aren't paid based on the difficulty of the airframe we are flying. We are paid based on the amount of revenue produced, the experience we bring to the cockpit, and responsibility that we carry. You should know that by now. A captain has infinitely more responsibility and more experience. It is certainly justified that he make significantly more than the copilot. (and I say this as a current copilot and former captain)

"Mid seniority" folks are still at the top end of the major pay scales at most companies.

That is by design. ALPA works hard to create a steep pay gradient, as that creates the best opportunities for higher career earnings. In other words, you'll spend a hell of a lot more time in your career on the 12-year scale than you will on the 2-year scale.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Where else would you find the rank and file say, yup, we're overpaid?

Sad and pathetic, isn't it?

 

[wheelsup]

I didn't say I was overpaid. I said the legacy guys were overpaid compared to their peers. Actually, I guess if you look at it, I guess I am overpaid as well, compared to my peers. Reality sucks.

 

[wheelsup]

I find that disgusting, but if you value yourself so little, then that's up to you. Just please stay the hell away from my airline.

Right. Your current and former companies have been stellar examples of the top tier places to work.

Honestly man, we've been going at it a while now, the above are just my opinions. Let it go .

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Let it go .

Not likely.

 

[MQAAord]

I am saddened and disappointed to see a thread about the demise of a gracious airline turned into a pissing match about how overpaid airline pilots (and F/As) are!

 

[Polar742]

I agree with your opinions (I think I am the only one )but keep in mind the above statement goes for airline guys too. Before 9/11 the pilots pretty much had management by the gonads. Personally I think the pay rates are extremely lop sided. Pay is too low at first but gets way out of line at the top. But that's what happens when you have senior Captains leading the union.

This is going to happen to airline pilots too. We don't have any real skill set that differentiates us from other airline pilots. We all do the same job. If you want to see the *true* value of an airline pilot these days look at Skybus's salaries. $30k for FO's $65k for captains on the Airbus with 160 seats. That's the future my friend.

That's an interesting perspective. How about looking at it from a business angle? Every business values an employee by their productivity. An airline pilot's productivity is only limited by the hours in the day. Look at my airplane now versus my previous airplane. Previously I flew 50-86 people on an airplane. Now, when we are loaded to the gills, we have 220,00 lbs of freight. I am significantly more productive than before. Sure the airplane is bigger, burns more fuel, blah blah blah, but I can produce more revenue. I realize that is kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison, but let's make it apples to apples.

We all know pax airlines unit of measure of productivity is Seat Miles. We produce Seat Miles. Available Seat Miles (ASM) is our inventory. Revenue per Seat Mile (RSM) is what we sell out of the inventory. When I started at the airlines I flew a 19 seat airplane, progressed to a 50 seater, and if we had seats would have, say 450.

So the first airplane moved 1 mile would produce 19 ASMs, the Second moved 1 mile would produce 50 ASMs, and the third moved one mile would produce 450 ASMs.

That is an exponential increase in productivity. Just imagine if one worker assembling widgets could produce them 20 times their initial rate!!

I'm sorry that some airlines are mismanaged, but the "top end guys", or guys on the heavy equipment produce ALOT, and should be rewarded. Similarly, if I get furloughed and flew a SAAB with 30 seats, I wouldn't expect to make the same as I do now.

BTW, when an F/O qualifies for food stamps, the pay is too low.

My $.02

 

[Polar742]

I didn't say I was overpaid. I said the legacy guys were overpaid compared to their peers. Actually, I guess if you look at it, I guess I am overpaid as well, compared to my peers. Reality sucks.

...or your peers are underpaid...

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

ALPA is already working on that. They're prepared to use legal avenues if necessary to force GAL to provide jobs for the out of work ATA pilots.

Gee. Thanks. It's nice to know that what we do "isn't worth that much". Tell that to the people who've been involved in a medical emergency or evacuation situation who have been enormously helped (or even possibly have had their very lives saved) by a F/A.

A senior F/A who flies high-time can make a respectable living. As it should be.



The same could be said for pilots. I hear you can train a monkey to do pretty much anything these days.

Pilots and F/As have different job duties, but BOTH are important and necessary for passenger flying.

Todd, Amber...anyone. Anyone know any airlines currently hiring FA's? Not sure what union ATA had for their FA's, but anyone heard anything that their union is doing for them, in terms of preferential hiring?

Brad of course lives here in PHX, with his partner, so me thinks he'd like to not have to commute anymore. So, I wonder if US Airways or Southwest is hiring flight attendants. He was maybe thinking about Delta because they're the highest paying FA's, and SLC is close.

Anyone know? Any help would be appreciated.

I'm seeing Brad and Anthony for lunch tomorrow so, I'd like to help give him some leads, should he not already have some.

Thanks, in advance.

 

[wheelsup]

I don't buy the "producer of revenue" argument for us airline guys. Pilots qualified on the 737 as CA's have the same skills and experience necessary to command a 747. The only reason one guy is in the 737 and one is in the 747 is because of seniority. It has nothing to do with experience or skill.

Now examine someone who is paid on the amount of revenue they generate. Say a salesman (or woman). The salesman who sells more makes more money, but they sell more based upon their own experience and skill, not because of seniority.

It's for this reason I like the single pay scale setup at places like UPS.

 

[wheelsup]

...or your peers are underpaid...

Yep, I thought about using that argument too . It seems like more and more everyone else is underpaid!!!

 

[SeanD]

I saw 2 of ATAs 757s parked on the tarmac in LAS today. Sad.
What are they planning on doing with them? It would suck to see them go to the desert.

 

[MQAAord]

Todd, Amber...anyone. Anyone know any airlines currently hiring FA's? Not sure what union ATA had for their FA's, but anyone heard anything that their union is doing for them, in terms of preferential hiring?

I think UAL is still accepting apps online.

Tell you what, I'll take a gander at some of their websites and get back to you.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Todd, Amber...anyone. Anyone know any airlines currently hiring FA's? Not sure what union ATA had for their FA's, but anyone heard anything that their union is doing for them, in terms of preferential hiring?

Brad of course lives here in PHX, with his partner, so me thinks he'd like to not have to commute anymore. So, I wonder if US Airways or Southwest is hiring flight attendants. He was maybe thinking about Delta because they're the highest paying FA's, and SLC is close.

Anyone know? Any help would be appreciated.

I'm seeing Brad and Anthony for lunch tomorrow so, I'd like to help give him some leads, should he not already have some.

Thanks, in advance.

I'm not sure about what goes on out there on the left coast, but we're hiring FAs at AirTran, and Delta also as you've mentioned. Unfortunately, several airlines announced they were stopping FA hiring at the same time they stopped pilot hiring this last few weeks. Bad time to be out of work.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think UAL is still accepting apps online.

Tell you what, I'll take a gander at some of their websites and get back to you.

UAL is one of the ones that stopped hiring. Might still be taking apps, though.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I'm not sure about what goes on out there on the left coast, but we're hiring FAs at AirTran, and Delta also as you've mentioned. Unfortunately, several airlines announced they were stopping FA hiring at the same time they stopped pilot hiring this last few weeks. Bad time to be out of work.

Bad time to be out of work, I know...not only that but lots of other FA's out of work too in an employers market, and in a recession.

He and Anthony have friends in ATL, so maybe...and with the current economy he might just have to commute.

Besides PHX-ATL isn't a hard commute, so I hear...

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

We serve PHX several times a day out of ATL on the 737, so the commute shouldn't be too hard if he wants to work here. Pay isn't the greatest to start out, but if he's willing to work, he can make good money after a few years. Reserve is much more bearable over at DAL, though, from what I hear from the FAs.

 

[Polar742]

Pilots qualified on the 737 as CA's have the same skills and experience necessary to command a 747.

I don't disagree with that statement

The only reason one guy is in the 737 and one is in the 747 is because of seniority. It has nothing to do with experience or skill.

That only seems half true. I have NO seniority at my company, but I fly a 747 since that's all we have. One must have a certain level of expereince and skill to operate either aircraft

Now examine someone who is paid on the amount of revenue they generate. Say a salesman (or woman). The salesman who sells more makes more money, but they sell more based upon their own experience and skill, not because of seniority.

While your salesperson analogy sounds true, how does a salesperson gain their experience and skill? Seniority. How do they produce revenue? Through sales. We'll expand this a bit further. We'll say I'm a factory line worker, and you're the salesguy. If I churn out 4 widgets a week, and you sell 2, I'm still producing the same amount. If we make too much revenue, production is slowed. ASM's should be reduced to drive up demand, and therefore, price. That is usually done by flying less. So instead of 4 legs a day, you might fly 3, thus the hourly rate of pay. If a pilot flies 4 flights a day at 0%, 25%, 50%, and 100% load factor, they still produced what they can. If management can't fill the seats whose fault is it? Not the pilots.

It's for this reason I like the single pay scale setup at places like UPS.

I like it too...