ATA discontinues all operations

[Polar742]

I wonder who's doing the AMC flying now? I'll bet a whole dolla that World and NAA will pick it up. World will prolly get some grey DC-10s too.

Just a guess.

 

[Trip7]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling. Guys, relax! Aviation is a career of boom and busts and everyone that gets into this profession is supposed to know that already. 2008 will be a tough year only and the strongest will survive. Thats the beauty of a free market economy. Reminds me of the Royal Rumble. Competitors getting eliminated one by one. All the airlines that have failed has been no surprise. They all were hanging off a cliff and finally fell off. Best of luck to all the effected employees and to everyone in the airline industry right now. We have entered some tough times and all we can do is watch and speculate. Its up to the boys and gals with the MBAs and big bank accounts now

 

[JDMcFly]

Thats the beauty of a free market economy. Reminds me of the Royal Rumble. Competitors getting eliminated one by one.

That's great and all until you remember that those are peoples jobs. The jobs they use to support their family and put food on the table every night.

 

[surreal1221]

I wonder who's doing the AMC flying now? I'll bet a whole dolla that World and NAA will pick it up. World will prolly get some grey DC-10s too.

Just a guess.

Which is why I said I hope the ATA pilots are re-hired at either World or NAA before any off the street new hire.

I suppose that would be asking for too much from airline management now wouldn't it?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

All I have to say about the ATA issue is this.

The ATA pilots better get jobs at North American or World before any new hire does.

Just in case anyone forgot, those three airlines are owned and managed by the same hedge fund organization.

ALPA is already working on that. They're prepared to use legal avenues if necessary to force GAL to provide jobs for the out of work ATA pilots.

re-regulation of aviation isn't necessary. The govt can't even handle safety and compliance enforcement, let alone running an industry.

It worked very well with the CAB before that dipsh-- Carter and his minion Alfred Kahn destroyed everything in '78 with their deregulation "experiment." Worst thing to ever happen to this industry, and not just from a labor perspective.

Allow me to continue that...

My understanding is that the 737s and 757s were leased.

It'd be neat if SWA bought the TZ operating certificate and made that announcement about the time their fuel prices start to significantly catch up with everyone else.

Start flying internationally, play around with larger aircraft. That would make for interesting contract negotiations.

</airliner geek>

You can't just buy an operating certificate to start flying internationally. ETOPS is a big deal. If you want to start ETOPS with someone else's certificate, you have to take their aircraft, training program, procedures, etc... That would likely trigger the M & A language in the ATA contract which would require protections for the ATA pilots. I doubt SWA will do that.

 

[Minuteman]

You can't just buy an operating certificate to start flying internationally. ETOPS is a big deal. If you want to start ETOPS with someone else's certificate, you have to take their aircraft, training program, procedures, etc... That would likely trigger the M & A language in the ATA contract which would require protections for the ATA pilots. I doubt SWA will do that.

So stay over Mexico and Central America.

What's M & A? Never head of that.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

M & A = Merger & Acquisition

 

[dbrault17]

Hearing this news hit me especailly hard today.

My best friend, who is like a brother to me. His partner/husband was a flight attendant for ATA, had been employed with them for 20+ years and had a seniority number in the 400's, and was making high six figures.

Wait, your friend was a flight attendant making high six figures? Is that all he was, a flight attendant? Did he have any other manager positions?

Maybe a flight attendant making high six figures was one reason they went under.

 

[dbrault17]

Wait, your friend was a flight attendant making high six figures? Is that all he was, a flight attendant? Did he have any other manager positions?

Maybe a flight attendant making high six figures was one reason they went under.

Sorry Max I seen your correction. But still an FA making close to six figures? Nothing against your friend or FAs but FAs cant be worth that much.

Sounds like GM workers-unskilled labor (factory work where a monkey can do it) making six figures in overtime trying to compete with companys that can pay a few cents a day FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB.

 

[MQAAord]

Sorry Max I seen your correction. But still an FA making close to six figures? Nothing against your friend or FAs but FAs cant be worth that much.

Gee. Thanks. It's nice to know that what we do "isn't worth that much". Tell that to the people who've been involved in a medical emergency or evacuation situation who have been enormously helped (or even possibly have had their very lives saved) by a F/A.

A senior F/A who flies high-time can make a respectable living. As it should be.

Sounds like GM workers-unskilled labor (factory work where a monkey can do it) making six figures in overtime trying to compete with companys that can pay a few cents a day FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB.

The same could be said for pilots. I hear you can train a monkey to do pretty much anything these days.

Pilots and F/As have different job duties, but BOTH are important and necessary for passenger flying.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Sorry Max I seen your correction. But still an FA making close to six figures? Nothing against your friend or FAs but FAs cant be worth that much.

Wow. What a horrible attitude. What qualifies you to judge what an FA is worth? Or a GM worker, for that matter, since you brought that up? They get what they are able to negotiate, and I can tell you that a good FA is worth every penny of a high five-figure salary and then some. AirTran's senior FAs can make about $80k/yr. As far as I'm concerned, I think they need a raise.

 

[brent p h]

<p>&lt;p&gt;

Gee, I didn't realize it was the government who managed the airlines.&lt;img src=&quot;images/smilies/rolleyes.gif&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;Rolleyes&quot; smilieid=&quot;24&quot; class=&quot;inlineimg&quot; /&gt;

&lt;/p&gt;</p>
<p>&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/<p>I'm sure it's co-inky-dink, but...you've gotta love this headline: Air Transport Association Details Airline Efforts to Protect the Environment While Urging Congress to Support R&amp;D, Alternative Fuels and Modernized Routes</p>
<p>http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1... /</p>
<p>WASHINGTON, April 2, 2008, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ -- -- The Air Transport Association of America (ATA), the industry trade organization representing the leading U.S. airlines, testifying today before the U.S. House Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming, detailed the industry's strong environmental performance and set forth its plans for further enhancing airline efforts to protect the environment. </p>
<p>&quot;Commercial aviation in the United States has a decidedly strong environmental track record that is often overlooked or misstated,&quot; said ATA President and CEO James C. May during today's hearing. &quot;U.S. commercial aviation contributes just 2 percent of domestic greenhouse gas emissions, compared to 25 percent for the balance of the transportation industry. Today's airplanes are not just smarter -- they are quieter, cleaner and use less fuel than ever before -- but we also fly them smarter.&quot; </p>
<p>U.S. commercial airlines improved their fuel efficiency by 103 percent between 1978 and 2006, the equivalent of taking roughly 17 million cars off the road. ATA carriers have made a commitment to improve their fuel efficiency by an additional 30 percent by 2025. They also are dedicated to developing commercially viable, environmentally friendly jet fuels. </p>
<p>While May focused primarily on airline-driven initiatives, he added that the commercial aviation industry can achieve an additional 15 percent in fuel efficiency if NextGen, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)-led initiative to modernize air traffic control, is approved by Congress.</p>

 

[dbrault17]

What qualifies you to judge what an FA is worth? Or a GM worker, for that matter, since you brought that up?

Just my opinion.

What are the requirements and experience to become an FA? A couple of weeks of classroom, GED or diploma, and a passport? What about a line worker? Know someone at the plant? The bar is not very high for these occupations so why should they be paid so much? (yes I know its almost that way for pilots too with ATPs 90 day zero to hero programs)

The only reason those salaries are so high is because of union collective barganing and they have been there the longest. Thats been great for the middle class and I dont blame a single person for taking those paychecks but is that sustainable in the long run or against the rest of the world in competition (free skies, toyota, chinas labor force)? Didnt work for ATA ands its bringing down GM-again all in my opinion.

So am I saying we should all throw up our hands and beg for long hours, days away from our familys for pennys a day-no not at all. But I can see it happening for those that dont have special skills or talent at something.

 

[surreal1221]

I yi yi . . .

 

[KLB]

Just my opinion.

What are the requirements and experience to become an FA? A couple of weeks of classroom, GED or diploma, and a passport? What about a line worker? Know someone at the plant? The bar is not very high for these occupations so why should they be paid so much?

If something happens, a aircraft goes down, the life of your family members depends how fast they can get out of the aircraft, and get to safety...how much do you value the person who may very well save there lives? I think FA's are worth every penny.


I believe the problem with GM is that they are not producing quality products. Their foreign competitors are producing a quality product while GM is putting every accessory they can inside the automobile. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. They've made bad decisions one after the other. As gas prices have risen, they continued to focus on the development of SUV's while their foreign competitors improved on the quality of their compact vehicles and making them more fuel efficient. Pre 9/11, when gas prices were low, U.S. car manufactures were thriving. But they've failed to adjust to the rising gas prices. Their competitors have been making their cars fuel efficient for the last couple of decades.

 

[MQAAord]

Just my opinion.

What are the requirements and experience to become an FA? A couple of weeks of classroom, GED or diploma, and a passport?

Generally speaking:
-HS Diploma or GED, some airlines require 2 years of college.
-Customer service experience of some sort, usually had in the retail or restaurant industry

F/A school is 4-7 weeks (depending on airline) of learning emergency procedures, evacuation commands, emergency equipment location memorization, basic medical training, computer system familiarization, customer service training, food service procedure training and more. Thousands apply, hundreds are selected, and usually only about 70% finish class and actually go on line.

What about a line worker? Know someone at the plant? The bar is not very high for these occupations so why should they be paid so much? (yes I know its almost that way for pilots too with ATPs 90 day zero to hero programs)

I can't speak for "the bar" at "the plant". F/A hiring is extremely competitive, and only a fraction of applicants (at the major level anyway) get hired.

But I can see it happening for those that dont have special skills or talent at something.

I'm sorry you feel emergency evacuation skills, medical training, and customer service skills are "not having special skills or talent



Now, out of respect for the employees at ATA who are now out of a job, I am not going to respond to any further bashing of F/As in this thread.

 

[Baradium]

so, why do you figure no warning? it's a shame the employees had no warning before they were let go.

I think that's very irresponsible.

From what I understand, they lost their military contract and made an immediate decision based on that.

 

[wheelsup]

The only reason those salaries are so high is because of union collective barganing

I agree with your opinions (I think I am the only one )but keep in mind the above statement goes for airline guys too. Before 9/11 the pilots pretty much had management by the gonads. Personally I think the pay rates are extremely lop sided. Pay is too low at first but gets way out of line at the top. But that's what happens when you have senior Captains leading the union.

So am I saying we should all throw up our hands and beg for long hours, days away from our familys for pennys a day-no not at all. But I can see it happening for those that dont have special skills or talent at something.

This is going to happen to airline pilots too. We don't have any real skill set that differentiates us from other airline pilots. We all do the same job. If you want to see the *true* value of an airline pilot these days look at Skybus's salaries. $30k for FO's $65k for captains on the Airbus with 160 seats. That's the future my friend.

 

[falconvalley]

Yes. . .I agree with Mike on this one. But don't recommend raising fares. That's too taboo, and goes against what every University in this country is teaching our pilots who hold business, finance, or economics degrees.

We need to forget for a second that we work in a de-regulated industry.

We are regulated. . .TO THE TEETH.

Only thing that is not regulated is how much a company can charge, and where they can go. Otherwise, everything the 121 world works on is a regulation (hence regulated industry).

I agree, the term is very misleading. For those who aren't familiar, De-regulation is referring to turning over some of the authority to decide ticket prices and destinations, to the airlines. The government used to play a big role in that until a little over 25 years ago. Much "regulation" remains, however.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Before 9/11 the pilots pretty much had management by the gonads.

Before 9/11, pilots were still making about 60-70% of what pilots made in the '70s when accounting for inflation. That's not exactly "having management by the gonads."

Pay is too low at first but gets way out of line at the top.

I agree that pay is too low at the bottom (obviously), but where do you get that pay is "out of line at the top?" Do you not think pilots are deserving of above average compensation when compared to most Americans? How does our experience and responsibility compare to most other occupations?

But that's what happens when you have senior Captains leading the union.

Common misconception. Senior Captains do not lead the union. There are a lot more mid-seniority guys in leadership positions than senior guys.

If you want to see the *true* value of an airline pilot these days look at Skybus's salaries.

I really hope that was a joke.