ASA/ExpressJet

[Seggy]

I respect what you said, but don't agree with it. Here I go.

Obviously I didn't attend a roadshow. I did however read up as much information as I could find on the matter, as it is obvious that it would later on affect us too.

Its no secret the company was playing the "give us this or we'll shut you down!" card. You don't have to attend a road show to see that. In fact, lately I've found myself to be just as skeptical on anything released by ALPA as I am by the company.

First, let us remember that the Pinnacle Pilots (through the MEC) did tell the company to shove the first time. So for those saying the Pinnacle Pilots caved in with the first deal, let us remember the facts here. What happened if the Pinnacle Pilots DID tell the company to shove it the second time? Then the company could have shut them down OR impose a worse deal than initially offered. That wouldn't have helped anyone would that have?

I think if I was in a PCL pilot's shoes, and I very well could be in the near future, I'm going to call the company's bluff.

Well they did the first time. Thankfully the court ruled in favor of the pilots, but with a VERY stern warning to get a deal.

General observations/opinions as to why I feel that way are as follows:

1) At best, my income has been stagnant since I hit second year pay back on '08. Yes I have received yearly raises of a dollar or two, but every year my expenses have increased. My health insurance is more expensive, groceries cost more, gas, everything. My family and I aren't struggling financially, but it certainly isn't easy. It's not like we're living the high life either. Yes we own a house, but only because our mortgage is less than what we'd be paying for in rent. We rarely travel. Both of our cars are over 10 years old. Again, we're not struggling, but the lack of progression in this career already is creating many sacrifices for us. Making even more just so that I can continue to fly airplanes for a living is something that I'm not sure I'm ready to do. I'm ready to start living like an adult. I don't want to have to check my bank account every time its time to put gas in the car. I'm not sure what I'll do if a TA with significant concessions passes. But I guarantee you that I'll be looking for other work, even if it isn't flying airplanes.

Finding a job outside of aviation that pays similarly is easier to do as a First Officer at a Regional rather than when you are a 40 year old Captain with a wife, two kids, and a dog at home.

2) I take pride in my work. This isn't just a job I took because I could throw 40k at a flight school and be an airline pilot in 90 days. Its a passion I've had my entire life. Every time I fly I try to be better than I was before. I hate that success in this industry seems to come down to who is willing to do this job for the least amount of money, not because they have more drive to actually be any good at it. I've seen it all over the industry, but now that it is potentially hitting me personally, it is making me question whether I want to be a part of it anymore.

Fair point. But how do you know you want a part of the 9-5 grind?

3) Even if I look at concessions as an investment. I give up a bit of my pay so that my company can go out, underbid someone to get more flying, and I finally can upgrade. I simply don't have the faith in my management to pull that off. Quite often I get the feeling that I could run this airline better from my iphone than the army of people they have working in headquarters. A great example happened yesterday. Captain 1 is going to hit 30 hours of block in 7 days sometime tomorrow. The way they chose to fix that is taking captain 2 off his trip at one of the hubs. He will work a flight to an overnight with captain 1 deadheading in the back. Captain 2 now overnights with that crew and deadheads back to domicile the next day. To replace captain 2 they deadhead captain 3 out from the domicile to the other hub. He finishes the rest of the trip with me. End result, cancellation pay for captain 2, deadhead and block for captain 3 equalling what captain 2 will make in cancellation. And two unnecessary deadheads. The easier solution would be to drop the last round trip from captain 1's pairing and have captain 3 fly it. Captain 1 and Captain 2 tried to explain that to scheduling and they just couldn't wrap their heads around it.

I see were you are going with this, but the fact of the matter is the Bankruptcy Court system doesn't give a flying hoot about any of that.

4) If the company truly is struggling financially and needs the money, they need to work hard to make sure that situations above don't happen. Unfortunately they're a daily occurrence. To quote a friend of mine: "If the company is in trouble, its not because I make what I make."

Once again, fair point. Once again, the Bankruptcy Court system doesn't care what you make. They know cuts have to be made and it is easy to go for those cuts with labor rates and rules. It sucks, but we can thank Republicans for that.

5) Somebody in this industry needs to step up like the Eagle guys did. If everybody did this, we wouldn't be having this problem. Right now is the absolute best opportunity to try to end all of this. Right now even the best (less worse?) regionals are having a difficult time filling classes. How is taking pay concessions going to help recruiting? Even if they shut us down, are there enough new pilots and people willing to give it another shot starting all over again at another regional?

It is easier to say 'no' than it is to say 'yes'. While I respect what the Eagle guys did, sometimes you need to surrender in war to attempt an escape.

6) We should be a real union. Our company basically said they want concessions so they can undercut bids for new flying with other airlines, some of who are also represented by ALPA. When that was brought up, the answer should have been an absolute no. The way the "bridge agreement" was used to trick Pinnacle pilots into voting for a crap sandwich is at best incompetent. I've seen screen shots of the website used for voting. Something along the lines of "I vote in favor/against the (blahblahblah) contract and bridge agreement." Really? You had to put that in the title? I don't even work for that airline and I knew that was part of the deal. Our union is starting to seem like a bunch of used car salesmen lately. They should be embarrassed.

If you feel your union is being a bunch of used car salesman lately, have you thought about running for Rep? Has there been a move to recall the Reps? They shouldn't be embarrassed, there is a democratic process to replace them, if people have heart burn with the reps, why don't you use that process?

There, that turned into a bit of a rant, but none the less. You didn't have to attend a roadshow to know what the pinnacle pilots were up against, or to know what we might be up against.

No problem with the rant. However, as I said, sometimes you need to surrender in war to escape.

 

[Seggy]

Boom.

Nice, lol. Yeah, Im seeing a trend with the New Seggy.

Yes, it is one of reality as it always has been.

Y'all are in a crummy situation. The fact of the matter is a contract should have been done in early 2011, but the Union Representatives were playing games, primarily from the L-XJT MEC (three MEC Chairs in less than three years REALLY???????) and now 4000+ pilots are going to get hosed. Saying no is easy. Saying yes when a deal is presented is hard.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Finding a job outside of aviation that pays similarly is easier to do as a First Officer at a Regional rather than when you are a 40 year old Captain with a wife, two kids, and a dog at home.

There are some 40+ year olds at the regionals.

They know cuts have to be made and it is easy to go for those cuts with labor rates and rules. It sucks, but we can thank Republicans for that.

Have the Dems even tried to change the rules? They had the chance you know.

 

[Seggy]

There are some 40+ year olds at the regionals.

Yep, very true. So say they are 55, two kids in college, making $120,000 a year. It would be hard to replace that income if the company shuts down (even if they get a wage reduction to $100,000 a year). So, for the 'NO' voters, are you really doing your fellow pilots across the industry a favor by having folks in their last working years starting over?

Once again, if the rules were better stacked in labor's favor, it would be A LOT easier to vote NO. But they aren't.

Have the Dems even tried to change the rules? They had the chance you know.

The Republicans would probably filibuster an attempt to change the rules. An Executive Order (if possible legally) would be the way to change it.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I respect what you said, but don't agree with it. Here I go.



First, let us remember that the Pinnacle Pilots (through the MEC) did tell the company to shove the first time. So for those saying the Pinnacle Pilots caved in with the first deal, let us remember the facts here. What happened if the Pinnacle Pilots DID tell the company to shove it the second time? Then the company could have shut them down OR impose a worse deal than initially offered. That wouldn't have helped anyone would that have?



Well they did the first time. Thankfully the court ruled in favor of the pilots, but with a VERY stern warning to get a deal.



Finding a job outside of aviation that pays similarly is easier to do as a First Officer at a Regional rather than when you are a 40 year old Captain with a wife, two kids, and a dog at home.



Fair point. But how do you know you want a part of the 9-5 grind?



I see were you are going with this, but the fact of the matter is the Bankruptcy Court system doesn't give a flying hoot about any of that.



Once again, fair point. Once again, the Bankruptcy Court system doesn't care what you make. They know cuts have to be made and it is easy to go for those cuts with labor rates and rules. It sucks, but we can thank Republicans for that.



It is easier to say 'no' than it is to say 'yes'. While I respect what the Eagle guys did, sometimes you need to surrender in war to attempt an escape.



If you feel your union is being a bunch of used car salesman lately, have you thought about running for Rep? Has there been a move to recall the Reps? They shouldn't be embarrassed, there is a democratic process to replace them, if people have heart burn with the reps, why don't you use that process?



No problem with the rant. However, as I said, sometimes you need to surrender in war to escape.

I agree that this should have been done a long time ago. I agree that sometimes you gotta give up something simply to survive. If my company was gushing money despite doing most things right, I might understand. If I was sacrificing to have some sort of career progression, I might understand. Giving up pay so that we can out walmart other pilot groups? Nope, that's shallow.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

The Republicans would probably filibuster an attempt to change the rules. An Executive Order (if possible legally) would be the way to change it.

I was actually thinking 2-3 years ago. They should of tried them but as we know all they really care about is getting reelected. Both parties.

 

[amorris311]

Yep, very true. So say they are 55, two kids in college, making $120,000 a year. It would be hard to replace that income if the company shuts down (even if they get a wage reduction to $100,000 a year). So, for the 'NO' voters, are you really doing your fellow pilots across the industry a favor by having folks in their last working years starting over?

Wrong argument! You should know better. That is a scare tactic I am not a fan of at all. Yes there are people who have stuck around and made regional airlines a career. Not saying I agree but I am not here to protect their job. They know the inherent risk of staying at a carrier that relies solely on contracts from other carriers. For the other 85% of people that signed up to get in and move on, like you. They should not have to take a beating so we can feel better about the top 10% of the pilots at our respective companies who don't have to worry about a furlough. The whole idea about a union is that it will benefit the majority of workers. Some people will not be happy and not understand why certain things happen but if it benefits the majority of the pilot group, industry, association then I'm all for it. So are you, don't start with the poor 55 year old crap. They made choices just like every single one of us here.

 

[L-16B]

Wrong argument! You should know better. That is a scare tactic I am not a fan of at all. Yes there are people who have stuck around and made regional airlines a career. Not saying I agree but I am not here to protect their job. They know the inherent risk of staying at a carrier that relies solely on contracts from other carriers. For the other 85% of people that signed up to get in and move on, like you. They should not have to take a beating so we can feel better about the top 10% of the pilots at our respective companies who don't have to worry about a furlough. The whole idea about a union is that it will benefit the majority of workers. Some people will not be happy and not understand why certain things happen but if it benefits the majority of the pilot group, industry, association then I'm all for it. So are you, don't start with the poor 55 year old crap. They made choices just like every single one of us here.

SAY IT WITH YOUR CHEST!

Good dinner thanks!

 

[Seggy]

Wrong argument! You should know better.

Are you saying it isn't valid for parts of the membership? If you think it isn't valid, I can give you a few numbers to call so you can hear their side of it.

That is a scare tactic I am not a fan of at all.

So are you saying it is not reality for some folks?

Yes there are people who have stuck around and made regional airlines a career.

Which was extremely stupid of them. I was so sick of hearing from folks I know at XJT how they get 3 months of vacation during the summer and make $135,000 a year. However, that is the reality they live.

Not saying I agree but I am not here to protect their job. They know the inherent risk of staying at a carrier that relies solely on contracts from other carriers.

So having them on the street is the answer?

For the other 85% of people that signed up to get in and move on, like you. They should not have to take a beating so we can feel better about the top 10% of the pilots at our respective companies who don't have to worry about a furlough. The whole idea about a union is that it will benefit the majority of workers.

So how do you explain the 87% (around that correct) of those who voted in favor of the recent Pinnacle deal?

So are you, don't start with the poor 55 year old crap. They made choices just like every single one of us here.

Extremely poor choices, but for a segment of the pilot group, it is a valid point. Notice how that was one of the many points I brought up when examining what XJT/ASA is looking at?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Are you saying it isn't valid for parts of the membership? If you think it isn't valid, I can give you a few numbers to call so you can hear their side of it.



So are you saying it is not reality for some folks?



Which was extremely stupid of them. I was so sick of hearing from folks I know at XJT how they get 3 months of vacation during the summer and make $135,000 a year. However, that is the reality they live.



So having them on the street is the answer?



So how do you explain the 87% (around that correct) of those who voted in favor of the recent Pinnacle deal?



Extremely poor choices, but for a segment of the pilot group, it is a valid point. Notice how that was one of the many points I brought up when examining what XJT/ASA is looking at?

It is a reality for some folks, but while I feel for them, I'm voting for me. We have a large group of lifers here, but I doubt they make up a majority of the pilot group.

You have to know that if they take a cut to 100k, it won't take long for the company to come and ask for 90k.

As for the 87% at Pinnacle? That's easy. Lifers+people who are tricked into thinking the bridge agreement will amount to something.

 

[Seggy]

It is a reality for some folks, but while I feel for them, I'm voting for me. We have a large group of lifers here, but I doubt they make up a majority of the pilot group.

The lifers don't but those who need a paycheck twice a month from your company are a majority.

You have to know that if they take a cut to 100k, it won't take long for the company to come and ask for 90k.

Then you say no like the Eagle guys did.

As for the 87% at Pinnacle? That's easy. Lifers+people who are tricked into thinking the bridge agreement will amount to something.

Or could it be the lifers+ those that were out the door but had a nice signing bonus coming their way? Or those that needed the income? To put it on the supposed bridge agreement is a little simplistic.

 

[Bama]

The worst part is voting yes to that turd and then finding another job in just a few months. That's like renovating your bathroom before scheduling the demolition crew....

 

[amorris311]

Are you saying it isn't valid for parts of the membership? If you think it isn't valid, I can give you a few numbers to call so you can hear their side of it.

Sure it's a valid argument. It's a tough decision but the fact of the matter is you have to do what is good for the majority of the group. Saving people's jobs who have stuck around and got used to the cushy life is not going to benefit the greater group. Give me the numbers. I'm sure I've talked to the same people and I told them the same things then as I am saying now.

So are you saying it is not reality for some folks?

No, never said that. What I did say though was they made the decision for whatever reason to stay at a carrier that relies solely on contracts for other carriers. If that is good decision making for them I'm ok with that. Just don't bring everyone else down because you won't be able to keep your awesome schedule and perks. There are more members that have it worse then have it good.

Which was extremely stupid of them. I was so sick of hearing from folks I know at XJT how they get 3 months of vacation during the summer and make $135,000 a year. However, that is the reality they live.

Ok that's great for them. I'm sad that I know people that are going on 8 year FO at XJT that are having a hard time paying for the basics while they work their tails off during the summer. Now you tell me who we need to look out for.

So having them on the street is the answer?

Please show me where I said shut it down! Please!

So how do you explain the 87% (around that correct) of those who voted in favor of the recent Pinnacle deal?

I don't know. I'm sure the top end was trying to keep a job. The bottom end was looking furlough in the face and thought hey I'm losing my job either way I'd much rather get paid and have benefits while I'm looking for a new job. That's my guess.

Extremely poor choices, but for a segment of the pilot group, it is a valid point. Notice how that was one of the many points I brought up when examining what XJT/ASA is looking at?

How big is this segment? Does this segment make up the majority? Like I said earlier its a tough choice but if it doesn't benefit the majority it isn't worth it. Once again my opinion I could be way off.

 

[amorris311]

SAY IT WITH YOUR CHEST!

Good dinner thanks!

I think I just did. The Italian is asleep so I can't do too loud.

 

[Seggy]

Sure it's a valid argument. It's a tough decision but the fact of the matter is you have to do what is good for the majority of the group. Saving people's jobs who have stuck around and got used to the cushy life is not going to benefit the greater group. Give me the numbers. I'm sure I've talked to the same people and I told them the same things then as I am saying now.

No, never said that. What I did say though was they made the decision for whatever reason to stay at a carrier that relies solely on contracts for other carriers. If that is good decision making for them I'm ok with that. Just don't bring everyone else down because you won't be able to keep your awesome schedule and perks. There are more members that have it worse then have it good.

Ok that's great for them. I'm sad that I know people that are going on 8 year FO at XJT that are having a hard time paying for the basics while they work their tails off during the summer. Now you tell me who we need to look out for.

Please show me where I said shut it down! Please!

I don't know. I'm sure the top end was trying to keep a job. The bottom end was looking furlough in the face and thought hey I'm losing my job either way I'd much rather get paid and have benefits while I'm looking for a new job. That's my guess.

How big is this segment? Does this segment make up the majority? Like I said earlier its a tough choice but if it doesn't benefit the majority it isn't worth it. Once again my opinion I could be way off.

Did you not see the other points I made besides this part of the argument (in post 541)? Or do you know I'm right with those points and need to beat this narrow issue into the ground? We both know I despise hearing the lifers argument, even though it is valid in their eyes.

 

[amorris311]

Did you not see the other points I made besides this part of the argument (in post 541)? Or do you know I'm right with those points and need to beat this narrow issue into the ground? We both know I despise hearing the lifers argument, even though it is valid in their eyes.

Oh I agreed with you on most points that's why I didn't chime in. When you took the bait and made the comment about 40+ year olds with kids it struck a chord. It was the same argument I heard months ago and it doesn't solve a thing. It's a microcosm of what is going on in the country. The rich cry poor me and then make the less fortunate feel guilty and sorry for them. I guess that's the American dream, I hate what the American dream has turned into.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Did you not see the other points I made besides this part of the argument (in post 541)? Or do you know I'm right with those points and need to beat this narrow issue into the ground? We both know I despise hearing the lifers argument, even though it is valid in their eyes.

So what do you suggest the lifers do? They cannot replace their salary anywhere else. They are making do with the crap sandwich they have, and must ride that train until the end. They clearly made choices that put them where they are, but hell, we all do that not knowing where it will lead. I went to JetBlue last year, and I could be eating a crap sandwich in a few years.

I just think as pilots we should vote how we see fit, and don't begrudge others who vote in their own best interests.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's always easy to tell the other guy to fall on his sword, or to be the guy who makes $40k and can replace his income tomorrow at Home Depot telling the guy making $110k to "take one for the team."

 

[Seggy]

So what do you suggest the lifers do?

Why are you asking me that question? You need to be asking amorris311 or Screaming_Emu!

They cannot replace their salary anywhere else.

I know.

I just think as pilots we should vote how we see fit, and don't begrudge others who vote in their own best interests.

Pilots like to act all hard but when push comes to shove they usually take a deal. Or act hard but don't volunteer and bitch and moan on how awful their union is.

 

[amorris311]

Why are you asking me that question? You need to be asking amorris311 or Screaming_Emu

So let me understand you. You think it's my job, along with the vast majority of other non-lifers, to contort and concede our livelihood to support the super senior, lack of foresight, captains at regional carriers?