Arrival question

[mikecweb]

Watching the thread and the comments on both sides, this strikes me as purely a technique issue. As a lowly piston pilot I don't fly STARs regularly but it seems the equivalent of "expect [the] IF straight in" on an approach. Do we keep the hold loaded until we get cleared straight in or or delete in now? No big deal either way. The only right answer is that a 2 pilot crew needs to be on the same page.

Which is sometimes the hardest part.

 

[greg1016]

Watching the thread and the comments on both sides, this strikes me as purely a technique issue. As a lowly piston pilot I don't fly STARs regularly but it seems the equivalent of "expect [the] IF straight in" on an approach. Do we keep the hold loaded until we get cleared straight in or or delete in now? No big deal either way. The only right answer is that a 2 pilot crew needs to be on the same page.

I disagree, connecting/disconnecting may be technique, but if you squawk 7600 and pull a crazy ivan at the last fix you were cleared to, that is far more dangerous than continuing on. We are trained to predict that you will continue to destination on your flight plan route if you squawk 7600 and are in IMC. When clearance delivery clears you to your destination airport, that is your clearance limit. When a center controller puts you on a 30 degree vector for spacing, your clearance limit is still your destination airport, and it is never not, unless you are cleared to hold. Even then if you find yourself in a lost comm situation while holding, you squawk 7600 and continue to your destination assuming IMC. ATC will part the sea for you. If we don't know wth you are doing, we can't do that. I believe in VMC you are supposed to proceed visually to the nearest suitable airport and land.

If you have not lost comms and are approaching the last fix on your route without instructions than ask, but I'd bet that when you checked in with the last radar controller they told you to expect the ILS RY 28L...and guess what? There is that "expect" again.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I disagree, connecting/disconnecting may be technique, but if you squawk 7600 and pull a crazy ivan at the last fix you were cleared to, that is far more dangerous than continuing on.

I think you misread what I wrote. That's not even close what I'm suggesting. I'm only saying that

• connecting based on the expectation and disconnecting if not needed; and
• not connecting until cleared

are two techniques to accomplish the same goal. No need to come up with a chamber of horrors, although it reminds me of some silly discussions I've seen among GA pilots about what to do when ATC is too busy to respond (yeah, I have heard 7600 and a hold as a suggestion )

 

[greg1016]

I think you misread what I wrote. That's not even close what I'm suggesting. I'm only saying that

• connecting based on the expectation and disconnecting if not needed; and
• not connecting until cleared

are two techniques to accomplish the same goal. No need to come up with a chamber of horrors, although it reminds me of some silly discussions I've seen among GA pilots about what to do when ATC is too busy to respond (yeah, I have heard 7600 and a hold as a suggestion )

I gotcha

 

[///AMG]

Use all caps, say it LOUDER!

I've had that debate with my colleagues for years.

Huh? What is their debate? [god voice] "you've reached your clearance limit, what now?" ......"TURN THE RADIOS OFF!!!!! AVE FAME!!!! THERE IS NO POSSIBLE SOLUTION!!!"

 

[form810]

So I’m getting tired of having this debate with FO’s I fly with. When an arrival ends with a fix that says expect approach XYZ and has no further guidance beyond that point, people I fly with keep telling me we should disconnect the arrival from the approach because we’re not cleared to fly the approach. I then tell them that the arrival also doesn’t allow us to proceed on a heading beyond the last point because there is literally no guidance for that on the arrival so I expect to keep it connected. What’s your take?
Example View attachment 69973

Agreed! I hate that kind of "empty ended" arrival. Usually, ATC is ahead of it. When they are not, I give them a "1 minute to BUNKR" or "crossing BUNKR" call and wake their asses up for further clearance. So far, that accomplished, I've received a vector.