Arrival question

Box hauler

Well-Known Member
So I’m getting tired of having this debate with FO’s I fly with. When an arrival ends with a fix that says expect approach XYZ and has no further guidance beyond that point, people I fly with keep telling me we should disconnect the arrival from the approach because we’re not cleared to fly the approach. I then tell them that the arrival also doesn’t allow us to proceed on a heading beyond the last point because there is literally no guidance for that on the arrival so I expect to keep it connected. What’s your take?
Example
1A44A2AD-57B2-45FE-A29F-C6D9A3862695.jpeg
 
My personal technique was to disconnect it, primarily as a reminder of the clearance limit.

(91/135 with no defined company guidance on this topic)
 
Since you'd be landing the 10R id just link it up. Either way it wouldn't annoy me. Its going in the correct direction if its not or if it connected so whatever you fancy.

Most would clean it up and connect it id assume.
 
In this case I would clean it up and connect it. Especially since there is no heading to fly. The arrivals in Vegas from the west will get you if you link it up to 26L. But I haven't seen many like that.
 
In this case I would clean it up and connect it. Especially since there is no heading to fly. The arrivals in Vegas from the west will get you if you link it up to 26L. But I haven't seen many like that.
Yeah I never link one that has a heading or track after the last fix, just these odd ones that have nothing after.
 
I would link it because there is no guidance after the fix....now if it gives a heading after, I would disconnect it till cleared for the approach. This seems to be the consensus on here...

FWIW, the odds of not getting guidance before this is very rare.
 
OP, I’m with you on this one. The instructions fill the gap between your arrival and your filed/cleared destination (FLL). You already KNOW if you’re crossing BUNKR, you’re going to do the ILS/LOC 10R, why not connect it? This is a published “expect” clearance. At BUNKR, intercept approach course, drive on, listen for the verbal clearance.

P.S. I’ve NEVER reached BUNKR or HOLID without an approach instruction. If you get to either of these points and you haven't received one by then, you’re probably in lost comms so they’ll be expecting you to do what you’re already doing (ILS/LOC 10R)! Look for the tower lights, land, take the rest of the day off with pay!

I would link it because there is no guidance after the fix....now if it gives a heading after, I would disconnect it till cleared for the approach. This seems to be the consensus on here...

FWIW, the odds of not getting guidance before this is very rare.
I would link because there IS guidance after the fix. The guidance is in the instruction block:
”expect ILS or LOC 10”.
 
So I’m getting tired of having this debate with FO’s I fly with. When an arrival ends with a fix that says expect approach XYZ and has no further guidance beyond that point, people I fly with keep telling me we should disconnect the arrival from the approach because we’re not cleared to fly the approach. I then tell them that the arrival also doesn’t allow us to proceed on a heading beyond the last point because there is literally no guidance for that on the arrival so I expect to keep it connected. What’s your take?
Example View attachment 69973

I leave mine connected. I've never had a situation similar to this where I've thought "I'm glad I didn't leave it connected".

From the Flight Standards side, we would teach to leave it connected as procedure, but technique could be to disconnect it as a reminder of the clearance limit so, effectively both answers are correct and I wouldn't even debrief that either way. JUST DON'T SCREW UP! :)
 
Link it. On the 73 you can put the last fix of the arrival on the fix page which puts a circle around it on the MFD to remind me where the clearance limit is.

There are exceptions of course. Our RNP to 27 in SAN comes to mind. If you link up the approach, the last fix of the arrival falls out and you’re gonna have a bad time.
 
OP, I’m with you on this one. The instructions fill the gap between your arrival and your filed/cleared destination (FLL). You already KNOW if you’re crossing BUNKR, you’re going to do the ILS/LOC 10R, why not connect it? This is a published “expect” clearance. At BUNKR, intercept approach course, drive on, listen for the verbal clearance.

P.S. I’ve NEVER reached BUNKR or HOLID without an approach instruction. If you get to either of these points and you haven't received one by then, you’re probably in lost comms so they’ll be expecting you to do what you’re already doing (ILS/LOC 10R)! Look for the tower lights, land, take the rest of the day off with pay!


I would link because there IS guidance after the fix. The guidance is in the instruction block:
”expect ILS or LOC 10”.
But I don’t think an “expect” on an approach plate is guidance or a clearance (lost comms would be the exception), that being said I agree with the top statement.
 
I’d have worried about this maybe in my regional days.,., Now not so much. As long as we both know this gotcha exists I think we’re ok.
 
I’ve seen a universal FMS do some funky stuff if you link something like this. For my airplane the answer would be don’t.
 
If the end point on the STAR doesn't have a heading, the technique where I work, at least on my fleet is to connect the approach. Pushing heading select isn't a difficult task if things change.
 
FWIW whenever you see or hear "expect," it is a lost comm procedure. I don't know anything about connecting STARs with IAPs but it seems to me the prudent thing would be to squawk 7600 and fly the approach if you lose comms, and if you have comms and haven't been cleared for the approach in a timely manner, then ask. No reason to disconnect. If you all of the sudden go into a hold because you haven't been cleared, that is really going to mess the whole thing up, unless you have been cleared to hold, your clearance limit is still your destination airport at the last altitude you were assigned.
 
FWIW whenever you see or hear "expect," it is a lost comm procedure. I don't know anything about connecting STARs with IAPs but it seems to me the prudent thing would be to squawk 7600 and fly the approach if you lose comms, and if you have comms and haven't been cleared for the approach in a timely manner, then ask. No reason to disconnect. If you all of the sudden go into a hold because you haven't been cleared, that is really going to mess the whole thing up, unless you have been cleared to hold, your clearance limit is still your destination airport at the last altitude you were assigned.

Use all caps, say it LOUDER!

I've had that debate with my colleagues for years.
 
Watching the thread and the comments on both sides, this strikes me as purely a technique issue. As a lowly piston pilot I don't fly STARs regularly but it seems the equivalent of "expect [the] IF straight in" on an approach. Do we keep the hold loaded until we get cleared straight in or or delete in now? No big deal either way. The only right answer is that a 2 pilot crew needs to be on the same page.
 
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