Army WO packet, advice

[SpiraMirabilis]

Should I start now or wait until I have my degree finished to be more competitive? Ie, is there any disadvantage to not getting selected one year and a year or two later reapplying with more competitive qualifications? I'm about to hit age 27, and I'll be finished with my degree at latest when I'm 29.

Are you more likely to be accepted active duty or reserves or does it matter at all?

Will excessive time civilian fixed wing be a stumbling block? If I wait to finish my degree I'll probably have close to 3500-4000 hours fixed wing. Is there a stigma for being "set in my ways" at that point?

I've wanted to fly helicopters forever, and I finally realized waiting around and sighing "that would be nice" isn't going to do anything for me. A career in the army might give me a great chance, not to mention the fact that I alone in my family has not served our nation in some way made me realize that it is actually something I feel strongly about (not necessarily just in the military but civil service in general.)

Even if I have my degree when I go for it I would rather go in as a WO than aviation branch O-1. I just want to fly, not manage, and as far as I can tell WOs fly a lot more.

 

[Ian_J]

Should I start now or wait until I have my degree finished to be more competitive? Ie, is there any disadvantage to not getting selected one year and a year or two later reapplying with more competitive qualifications? I'm about to hit age 27, and I'll be finished with my degree at latest when I'm 29.

Are you more likely to be accepted active duty or reserves or does it matter at all?

Will excessive time civilian fixed wing be a stumbling block? If I wait to finish my degree I'll probably have close to 3500-4000 hours fixed wing. Is there a stigma for being "set in my ways" at that point?

I've wanted to fly helicopters forever, and I finally realized waiting around and sighing "that would be nice" isn't going to do anything for me. A career in the army might give me a great chance, not to mention the fact that I alone in my family has not served our nation in some way made me realize that it is actually something I feel strongly about (not necessarily just in the military but civil service in general.)

Even if I have my degree when I go for it I would rather go in as a WO than aviation branch O-1. I just want to fly, not manage, and as far as I can tell WOs fly a lot more.

Can't really answers your questions because I've never been involved in WO boards, but just wanted to wish you luck. If you were in CT and wanted to be a Guard pilot I could walk you in to see the right people, but for AD there are a number of current and recently accepted warrants here that I know of.

(And don't knock the O side of Army Aviation - it's not the "manage" part that's cool, it's the "lead" part. Oh, and we fly too. )

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Is it like the air force though that as you progress in your career you do much more leading and lot less flying? Do aviation branch majors fly very much?

 

[Ian_J]

It depends... but yes, generally WOs fly more consistently throughout their careers.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Start the process now and try to finish up your degree as soon as you can. No need hide your flight experience but don't make that your #1 selling point.

Best of luck.

 

[erictgill]

Rumors I have herd are that the Army perfers no flight experiance because they want to train you with a clear mind. I think putting your WO packet in as a Reservest is your best bet. I have seen alot of people do it while on Active Duty and their units them by refusing to let them leave the unit to go to WO School. Remeber units need soldiers to be up to strengh for deployment and if they let everyone go to a school they would be under manned. Plus for some reason superiors in the Army do not want to see others succeed, thats the sad truth.

 

[Ian_J]

Rumors I have herd are that the Army perfers no flight experiance because they want to train you with a clear mind. I think putting your WO packet in as a Reservest is your best bet. I have seen alot of people do it while on Active Duty and their units them by refusing to let them leave the unit to go to WO School. Remeber units need soldiers to be up to strengh for deployment and if they let everyone go to a school they would be under manned. Plus for some reason superiors in the Army do not want to see others succeed, thats the sad truth.

Respectfully, and I only say this so other members get to see every side and am not trying to get into a big debate, but I strongly disagree with most of this and certainly the last statement.

In my experience (since 1993... as an enlisted 11B, an NCO, and now as a commissioned officer) Army leaders very much want their Soldiers to succeed. I have seen so many examples of this I could write quite a bit about it, actually. I wouldn't be an officer now if my leaders didn't want me to succeed, and I certainly wouldn't be a pilot. And I've lost count of the number of OCS, WOCS, and ROTC letters of recommendation I've written - all my colleagues have similar stories as well. Also, I have no idea how many, but quite a few of my former crew chiefs are now warrant or commissioned officers thanks to their leaders. (Not thanks to me, either - all I do is recommend - it is the upper-level leaders who are approving all of this).

I am sorry if you feel you personally didn't get a fair shake. Without knowing your personal story I can't comment. I can say though that your "sandbox" is relatively small compared to how the overall Army operates, so I ask, respectfully, that you qualify broad comments like that in the future so as not to confuse people interested in becoming a Soldier.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Rumors I have herd are that the Army perfers no flight experiance because they want to train you with a clear mind. I think putting your WO packet in as a Reservest is your best bet. I have seen alot of people do it while on Active Duty and their units them by refusing to let them leave the unit to go to WO School. Remeber units need soldiers to be up to strengh for deployment and if they let everyone go to a school they would be under manned. Plus for some reason superiors in the Army do not want to see others succeed, thats the sad truth.

I don't know off hand a good reference, but I think most reserve units require their WO candidate to have prior service. I do know several WO's that had significant civilian flight time prior to being selected.

At least on the active duty side your command can not stop you from summiting a WO packet or prevent you from leaving if you get picked up. However this doesn't mean they'll automatically write letters of recommendation for whatever reason.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Rumors I have herd are that the Army perfers no flight experiance because they want to train you with a clear mind. I think putting your WO packet in as a Reservest is your best bet. I have seen alot of people do it while on Active Duty and their units them by refusing to let them leave the unit to go to WO School. Remeber units need soldiers to be up to strengh for deployment and if they let everyone go to a school they would be under manned. Plus for some reason superiors in the Army do not want to see others succeed, thats the sad truth.

Hey you might want to be careful on what advice you give out here. Yeah I know it's the Internet and only fools would use an open forum as their only source of info but here it could guide someone in a completely wrong direction.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Thanks Low Level, also you automatically win the Internet for the Ash/Boomstick avatar.

 

[Sandy]

Army leaders very much want their Soldiers to succeed.

:yeahthat: Agree completely.

 

[Sandy]

As a warrant officer you will start as a pilot, but then with more experience move into one of three more specialized areas; maintenance, standardization, or safety. But, you will always be immersed in aviation.

 

[Ian_J]

As a warrant officer you will start as a pilot, but then with more experience move into one of three more specialized areas; maintenance, standardization, or safety. But, you will always be immersed in aviation.

One more specialty these days - TACOPs. Didn't know you were an Army pilot - when you were you in and what did you fly?

 

[erictgill]

I have only done 4 1/2 years enlisted in a Cav unit so I cannot speak from much experiance because all I have is 4 1/2. So with that said by no means take what I say to heart. The only advice I give is to know what your getting yourself into and becareful in the decisions you make. I have had a bad experiance in my unit and I have seen alot of people suffer from it. NOT to say that the Army operates in this sort of manner but the sad truth is there are some in the Army who just dont care. Im sure in 1993 things were ran under the concept of common sense.
Today everything is micro-managed everything is regulated. I know of a 35 year old SPC who have to ask their SGT for permission to get married. Usually tradition has it your suppose to ask the bride's father for permission but in the Army i guess its the Chain of Command lol.

Like I said I havent done alot of time so do NOT take what I say to heart. I know people who are in the Army and love it and love what they do. What ever your decision may be I hope you enjoy what you do, Army WO is a great position to be in.

 

[MikeD]

Though RLOs do fly in the Army, I have noticed that it seems frowned on them to fly for too long......O-3 seems to be the limit. Not true in ALL cases, but seems to be the norm. It's why I have hardly EVER seen an RLO who's an IP, and MOST surprising to me was a requirement I heard that aviation unit Company Commanders had to at least be ACs. ACs??? Thats all? In the AF, you at least have to be an IP to have any true credibility as a squadron commander, more often than not have been an SEFE (SFE for you Army types).

One of the things I've witness happening so often that I think its more than just a coincidence now, is the number of Army WO aviators I've encountered who were RLOs, and reverted to being a CWO. I thought it was rare anomoly, but I found out its quite common, for many of the reasons stated in the first paragraph.

But truly, in the Army, one's job as an RLO is to be a soldier, then officer, then aviator (it seems). As such, aviation just doesn't seem to hold any special importance...its just another maneuver element, no different than the mech infantry or armor or arty. It's why they don't seem to want any distinction between aviators and other soldiers......no one-piece "pickle suit" flight suits, having the pilots at an exercise "rock drill" wearing helmet/LBE and face paint, all of which they have to doff to go flying, then don again for the debrief (seen firsthand). And its RLO aviators don't seem to be encouraged to aviate as senior company grade officers and above, at least not as much as I've seen with AF pilots. It's why I've personally seen O-5/6s wearing slick-aviator wings. Slick wing, with that many years in? Just a different culture, I suppose.

 

[Ian_J]

Though RLOs do fly in the Army, I have noticed that it seems frowned on them to fly for too long......O-3 seems to be the limit. Not true in ALL cases, but seems to be the norm. It's why I have hardly EVER seen an RLO who's an IP, and MOST surprising to me was a requirement I heard that aviation unit Company Commanders had to at least be ACs. ACs??? Thats all? In the AF, you at least have to be an IP to have any true credibility as a squadron commander, more often than not have been an SEFE (SFE for you Army types).

One of the things I've witness happening so often that I think its more than just a coincidence now, is the number of Army WO aviators I've encountered who were RLOs, and reverted to being a CWO. I thought it was rare anomoly, but I found out its quite common, for many of the reasons stated in the first paragraph.

But truly, in the Army, one's job as an RLO is to be a soldier, then officer, then aviator (it seems). As such, aviation just doesn't seem to hold any special importance...its just another maneuver element, no different than the mech infantry or armor or arty. It's why they don't seem to want any distinction between aviators and other soldiers......no one-piece "pickle suit" flight suits, having the pilots at an exercise "rock drill" wearing helmet/LBE and face paint, all of which they have to doff to go flying, then don again for the debrief (seen firsthand). And its RLO aviators don't seem to be encouraged to aviate as senior company grade officers and above, at least not as much as I've seen with AF pilots. It's why I've personally seen O-5/6s wearing slick-aviator wings. Slick wing, with that many years in? Just a different culture, I suppose.

It's just a different culture, Mike. And it's not that senior officers are discouraged to fly, it's a combination of there not being enough flight hours for all the company-based pilots AND their attached staff officer, and a lack of time available to staff officers to get out and fly. I've been an OPSO and a Platoon Leader, both times in charge of the flight schedule, and specifically as an OPSO in charge of managing our staff officers' flight time - it's a simple math game where the numbers don't add up. Priority one was getting all the new pilots progressed to be FMC, priority two was getting all the line pilots their FAC1 minimums (which was tough), and the last priority was getting the staff officers their FAC2 minimums. It often didn't happen. Staff officers begged to fly and their bosses actually do encourage them to go out and fly as much as they can... it's the availability that's the problem.

RLOs typically aren't IPs because it would be a waste of time and money to send them to IP school. Units wouldn't get much use out of them because they'd move on too quickly. We've got our pool of cheap labor who fills that role full time. (And that's not a knock on WOs... nearly every other service pays their pilots officer wages, why shouldn't we?) Aviation truly is another maneuver element - we are to the helicopter as the Armor officer is to the tank.

The good news is that our culture has trended positively for RLOs in aviation. 10 years ago most officers left their first duty station with well under 500 hours without even being a qualified PC. Thanks to Gen. Cody many more are becoming PCs and are getting a lot more flight time. In my unit in the 101st I made PC pretty quickly and because I was a PC I flew more. Then later as a staff officer and a company commander I flew more than my peers because I was still valuable to the unit when they needed a PC.

And there are some pretty neat opportunities out there too. Two of my buddies are currently in Naval Test Pilot School and are loving every minute of it. I, through the Guard, am either going to IP school or maintenance test pilot school. (Probably the latter, but I'm fighting for the former). Other friends of mine are in the 160th and do some crazy flying.

I'd also say that flying isn't the end all, be all of this job anyway. It's a bonus. Think of day one in your first unit after flight school for the AF Officer and the Army Officer. The AF Officer is probably getting to work right away on becoming FMC, as is the Army Officer. The AF Officer might be put in charge of the fridge fund, too. The Army Officer is put in charge of 8 helicopters and the associated maintenance, 16 pilots and 16 crew members, and a bunch of ground vehicles and field equipment. His immediate subordinate is an NCO much older than him with at least 15 years in, and his pilots (some IPs) all have more experience. Though intimidating, that is an awesome and challenging experience. (And Mike, that wasn't meant to be an AF v. Army jab - just a vignette to show the difference... blasting off by yourself in an A-10 in Bagram has it's appeal as well ).

 

[MikeD]

It's just a different culture, Mike. And it's not that senior officers are discouraged to fly, it's a combination of there not being enough flight hours for all the company-based pilots AND their attached staff officer, and a lack of time available to staff officers to get out and fly. I've been an OPSO and a Platoon Leader, both times in charge of the flight schedule, and specifically as an OPSO in charge of managing our staff officers' flight time - it's a simple math game where the numbers don't add up. Priority one was getting all the new pilots progressed to be FMC, priority two was getting all the line pilots their FAC1 minimums (which was tough), and the last priority was getting the staff officers their FAC2 minimums. It often didn't happen. Staff officers begged to fly and their bosses actually do encourage them to go out and fly as much as they can... it's the availability that's the problem.

RLOs typically aren't IPs because it would be a waste of time and money to send them to IP school. Units wouldn't get much use out of them because they'd move on too quickly. We've got our pool of cheap labor who fills that role full time. (And that's not a knock on WOs... nearly every other service pays their pilots officer wages, why shouldn't we?) Aviation truly is another maneuver element - we are to the helicopter as the Armor officer is to the tank.

The good news is that our culture has trended positively for RLOs in aviation. 10 years ago most officers left their first duty station with well under 500 hours without even being a qualified PC. Thanks to Gen. Cody many more are becoming PCs and are getting a lot more flight time. In my unit in the 101st I made PC pretty quickly and because I was a PC I flew more. Then later as a staff officer and a company commander I flew more than my peers because I was still valuable to the unit when they needed a PC.

And there are some pretty neat opportunities out there too. Two of my buddies are currently in Naval Test Pilot School and are loving every minute of it. I, through the Guard, am either going to IP school or maintenance test pilot school. (Probably the latter, but I'm fighting for the former). Other friends of mine are in the 160th and do some crazy flying.

I'd also say that flying isn't the end all, be all of this job anyway. It's a bonus. Think of day one in your first unit after flight school for the AF Officer and the Army Officer. The AF Officer is probably getting to work right away on becoming FMC, as is the Army Officer. The AF Officer might be put in charge of the fridge fund, too. The Army Officer is put in charge of 8 helicopters and the associated maintenance, 16 pilots and 16 crew members, and a bunch of ground vehicles and field equipment. His immediate subordinate is an NCO much older than him with at least 15 years in, and his pilots (some IPs) all have more experience. Though intimidating, that is an awesome and challenging experience. (And Mike, that wasn't meant to be an AF v. Army jab - just a vignette to show the difference... blasting off by yourself in an A-10 in Bagram has it's appeal as well ).

Don't have time right now to fully comment, but good explanation above overall.

So, WO's are the "regional pilots" of Army aviation, to make a comparison?

Also, is there no two-track system for aviator O's in the Army? IE, guys who WANT to go the command track and make rank, versus guys who just want to fly and may top out as O-4? Navy has the Limited Duty Officer program which is similar, IIRC.

 

[Ian_J]

So, WO's are the "regional pilots" of Army aviation, to make a comparison?

Well... more like the regional pilots of the entire Armed Forces, but with more training, skill, and professionalism.

Also, is there no two-track system for aviator O's in the Army? IE, guys who WANT to go the command track and make rank, versus guys who just want to fly and may top out as O-4? Navy has the Limited Duty Officer program which is similar, IIRC.

Nope - absolutely no two track system. The only track system really is when you make O-4 you can choose a "functional area" outside of your basic branch or you can stay operations. A buddy of mine is a real math nerd and just chose the ORSA (Operations Research/Systems Analyst) functional area. They sent him to grad school for it. He'll never fly again, and probably won't command again, but he's real happy doing that nerdy stuff.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Don't have time right now to fully comment, but good explanation above overall.

So, WO's are the "regional pilots" of Army aviation, to make a comparison?

Hey I get well compensated for the six hours a day I spend at work, and that's including the hour and a half I actually do something productive.

 

[MikeD]

It's just a different culture, Mike. And it's not that senior officers are discouraged to fly, it's a combination of there not being enough flight hours for all the company-based pilots AND their attached staff officer, and a lack of time available to staff officers to get out and fly. I've been an OPSO and a Platoon Leader, both times in charge of the flight schedule, and specifically as an OPSO in charge of managing our staff officers' flight time - it's a simple math game where the numbers don't add up. Priority one was getting all the new pilots progressed to be FMC, priority two was getting all the line pilots their FAC1 minimums (which was tough), and the last priority was getting the staff officers their FAC2 minimums. It often didn't happen. Staff officers begged to fly and their bosses actually do encourage them to go out and fly as much as they can... it's the availability that's the problem.

Available flight time I can understand. But there's still the cultural question I want to expand on...

RLOs typically aren't IPs because it would be a waste of time and money to send them to IP school. Units wouldn't get much use out of them because they'd move on too quickly. We've got our pool of cheap labor who fills that role full time. (And that's not a knock on WOs... nearly every other service pays their pilots officer wages, why shouldn't we?) Aviation truly is another maneuver element - we are to the helicopter as the Armor officer is to the tank.

But (at least in the AF) when you move on, you still retain your quals, assuming you stay in the same airframe. If I PCS from one A-10 squadron to another, I take the quals I have with me. So in that sense, it's not a waste of time; unless the Army only considers what's good the unit only. I don't know if thats the case or not.

I'd also say that flying isn't the end all, be all of this job anyway. It's a bonus. Think of day one in your first unit after flight school for the AF Officer and the Army Officer. The AF Officer is probably getting to work right away on becoming FMC, as is the Army Officer. The AF Officer might be put in charge of the fridge fund, too. The Army Officer is put in charge of 8 helicopters and the associated maintenance, 16 pilots and 16 crew members, and a bunch of ground vehicles and field equipment. His immediate subordinate is an NCO much older than him with at least 15 years in, and his pilots (some IPs) all have more experience. Though intimidating, that is an awesome and challenging experience. (And Mike, that wasn't meant to be an AF v. Army jab - just a vignette to show the difference... blasting off by yourself in an A-10 in Bagram has it's appeal as well ).

Here's where I take issue with the first sentence. If you are an aviator, then flying should be something you're damn good at, not just thought of as a bonus or something secondary, as the Army seems to (again, talking RLOs here, not WO's). In that vein, if an aviation-branch officer is going to lead an aviation unit as a PL or CC, then he/she needs to be qualed, competent, and experienced to the highest extent possible; not just wear a set of wings and be called the unit leader. Because with that kind of officer (low quals, not even an IP, low hours) leading the unit, that officer now lacks credibility. And I could care less how much an aviation-branch officer in a unit knows about ground vehicles and field equipment.......if he wants to worry about that stuff, then he ought to take off the aviation branch symbol, and put the crossed rifles/arty tubes/swords branch designator on and not take up space in a cockpit. Yes, the aviator needs to have a working knowledge of what his compatriots do, but his soldiering is in the air and the aviation realm, and in order to lead in that role, he needs the cred to do so. He shouldn't have to "be intimidated" in order to have a challenge; he should be setting the example with his knowledge and skill, not just be a place-holder in a chain of command because he has an "O" grade-designator and the Army doesn't value his need to be qualed to the highest extent possible.

Thats the culture difference I take issue with regards the Army when it comes to Aviation and RLOs, and the biggest reason I see with so many O's reverting back to CWO's. Personally, if the Army is going to treat Aviation as a "second rate nuisance" with its Officer Corps, then why even have RLOs in aviation? It'd be MUCH easier to have the highly-qualed and experienced (and commissioned) CWO be the PL or the CC. Leave officers out of aviation altogether.