Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the State

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

sdfcvoh said:
I ended up better off than most, but still lost over $10k. Many (read 20+) ended up much worse. They closed the doors (Utah, Arizona, Florida, Nevada) then disappeared behind the legal triplicate. Lawyers filed for bankruptcy. Creditors came calling. Do you think students got their money back?

Much worse, we found out later that the corporate office (Cedar City, UT) had been told to cease and desist by the government in Utah almost a year before many of us even started. They were collecting fees without a bond. Many of us tried for over a year to make headway and ended up being blocked from every direction. A few students were awarded settlements by the courts in private cases... only to be unable to ever collect.
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And you know what, there are lots of stories just like this. This rip off has been going on for decades. No one cared and no one did anything about it until these Jet U Students got together and decided they were going to do something about it.

Your story has been told to me hundreds of times. It's sickening that these bad guys have gotten away with this scam for decades. It has affected thousands of pilots and their families. It's not an isolated case. It's a well thought out marketing scam designed to steal money from students.

There is an 87% drop out rate in this industry. Only 13 students out of 100 that begin their flight training even make it to Private. That is what the bad guys are counting on.

Please don't hate these students for trying to effect change. When this is all said and done and the student flight school tuition is protected, it will be better for everyone in the industry except the bad guys that have been ripping everyone off.

I have two groups that I am pretty fond of these days. The Jet University Students and the Flight 3407 families. Both groups are effecting change that will benefit the industry and all of us within the industry. Both groups have done things that the industry could not accomplish. Sometimes it's a little hard to see until all of the smoke clears.

The CFI's have been used and are being used as pawns in this battle. I've said over and over the CFI's are getting the worst of it. I've tried to put in safeguards for the CFI's in the things that I have worked on. Some are working against those safeguards in an effort to eliminate themselves from any regulation.

I've suggested taking out the financial requirements for those that are not collecting money upfront. Unfortunately I am not being listened to in that area. I really do believe that you should be exempt from the financial requirements if you are not collecting the money upfront.

Keep in mind that no one is going to be 100% happy no matter what you do. The laws and rules get into committee and get twisted and turned in 100's of different directions. That's just the way it works. In the end I predict we'll get something that is workable but will not be perfect. But change has to start somewhere. To do nothing just means a repeat of the same thing.

Joe
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

OldTownPilot said:
rental + instructor > 250/hr.

yeah, the officially recognized training that the Cirrus training center and the CSIPs have for a (IFR) full glass transition is 10 hours (say from a steam C182 to a SR22). Of course that is pretty much recognized everywhere, and you can take that training to any CTC and rent.
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Gotta say.... for a single engine, 4-place aircraft, that is a riiiiiip oofffff. I can fly a helicopter or a multi for about $50 more than that with instructor.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Joe, I applaud you for your efforts. I don't want to sound like I'm unappreciative of your actions. Quite the opposite. Rock on and thanks for the PMs.

My experience was one that still would have skirted regulation. The school I attended was told by regulators to stop collection of tuition without proper bond. This happened a year before I had even heard of the place. They were dishonest businessmen. They skirted the system; another example of how laws keep only the honest people honest.

What won't work: A clearinghouse of whistle blowers that gather info from government agencies. More regulation.

What will work: A private organization that derives its funds from grant monies and absolutely destroys the lives of people who perpetrate these frauds via completely legal avenues. Those avenue should include the gray areas that we might call alleys instead of avenues. COUNT ME IN.

JOEFRIDAY2 said:
And you know what, there are lots of stories just like this. This rip off has been going on for decades. No one cared and no one did anything about it until these Jet U Students got together and decided they were going to do something about it.

Your story has been told to me hundreds of times. It's sickening that these bad guys have gotten away with this scam for decades. It has affected thousands of pilots and their families. It's not an isolated case. It's a well thought out marketing scam designed to steal money from students.

There is an 87% drop out rate in this industry. Only 13 students out of 100 that begin their flight training even make it to Private. That is what the bad guys are counting on.

Please don't hate these students for trying to effect change. When this is all said and done and the student flight school tuition is protected, it will be better for everyone in the industry except the bad guys that have been ripping everyone off.

I have two groups that I am pretty fond of these days. The Jet University Students and the Flight 3407 families. Both groups are effecting change that will benefit the industry and all of us within the industry. Both groups have done things that the industry could not accomplish. Sometimes it's a little hard to see until all of the smoke clears.

The CFI's have been used and are being used as pawns in this battle. I've said over and over the CFI's are getting the worst of it. I've tried to put in safeguards for the CFI's in the things that I have worked on. Some are working against those safeguards in an effort to eliminate themselves from any regulation.

I've suggested taking out the financial requirements for those that are not collecting money upfront. Unfortunately I am not being listened to in that area. I really do believe that you should be exempt from the financial requirements if you are not collecting the money upfront.

Keep in mind that no one is going to be 100% happy no matter what you do. The laws and rules get into committee and get twisted and turned in 100's of different directions. That's just the way it works. In the end I predict we'll get something that is workable but will not be perfect. But change has to start somewhere. To do nothing just means a repeat of the same thing.

Joe
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Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I'd like to know how the state of California intends to track how much a student gives me.

Seems like that's between me and the student.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

As long as we use money for transactions there will be scam artists and cons. Regulation will do little to stop them. Proper awareness and foresight from a consumer is the proper corrective action for these problems. If people used a small amount of common sense when shopping for a school most all of these problems could be avoided. I find it hard to believe that these students who gave some of these schools thousands of dollars up front couldn't have done a little research and discovered the woes and dangers of these companies. For example, look at this site for example? It is choked full of warnings about pre paying for training.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

trafficinsight said:
I'd like to know how the state of California intends to track how much a student gives me.

Seems like that's between me and the student.
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Won't be an issue until some student pays a bunch of money and doesn't get what he was supposed to. Then he reports to the bureau and they find out that he paid more than $2500.

I pity the fool that rips off the next flight school student in California. He is going to be the state poster boy and will have a new job making license plates. They are going to be all over this dude when it happens.

Joe
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Codyjp said:
As long as we use money for transactions there will be scam artists and cons. Regulation will do little to stop them. Proper awareness and foresight from a consumer is the proper corrective action for these problems. If people used a small amount of common sense when shopping for a school most all of these problems could be avoided. I find it hard to believe that these students who gave some of these schools thousands of dollars up front couldn't have done a little research and discovered the woes and dangers of these companies. For example, look at this site for example? It is choked full of warnings about pre paying for training.
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And now the bad guys that rip off flight school students will go to prison in California.

When the bad guys get reported there is a division that can handle the report and has the power to get the bad guy stopped.

That leaves all of the business for the good guys.

Joe
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

JOEFRIDAY2 said:
Won't be an issue until some student pays a bunch of money and doesn't get what he was supposed to. Then he reports to the bureau and they find out that he paid more than $2500.

I pity the fool that rips off the next flight school student in California. He is going to be the state poster boy and will have a new job making license plates. They are going to be all over this dude when it happens.

Joe
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Right... except they've put the current bill on hold and are currently re writing it.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Codyjp said:
Right... except they've put the current bill on hold and are currently re writing it.
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About 4 hours ago, I received 163 pages of California modified text. Haven't had a chance to go through it yet.

Joe
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I have nothing to say as far as the rip-off protection goes, but I really don't like the tone of calling 61 shops "hobby" schools and not for the professional pilot.
My response to that would have been effu.

In fact how many times do we discuss on this board how the 61 school is sometimes a better option both financially and to get more experience then just what is in the syllabus?
They should have just said 61 is not ideal if you have a bad case of SJS.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

What does it matter what the state says? A CFI ticket is a CFI ticket, no matter if its from a 141 school or not.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

mshunter said:
So I guess ATP, based at IWA, beeing a pt61 school, is a hobby school? See my point now? I guess I am considered a paid hobby pilot then. Because thats where I got my certs. at.
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Your new certificate is in the mail. Changed Commercial pilot to hobby pilot, lol.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I personally would like to echo the sentiment of those stressing the responsibility on the consumer to do research before spending tens of thousands of dollars. There are many resources available, and in the age of the internet there really is no excuse. Government regulations will always be one step behind the "savy" scam artist.

The group I really feel for on the whole is CFIs. It's just so hard to find a decent outfit to work for that isn't out to screw the student over. I taught 61 for a guy and after only working there for 4 months I just could not swallow his "business practices". In this case it was not people paying up front, but other fees and policies he had designed to swindle the consumer out of their money that someone who hasn't been around aviation would not be able to detect. Icouldn't stand it and quit the place, and haven't flown in 8 months, but I plan to teach again in the timeframe of the next 3-6 months. I just hope that I can find somewhere that's not out to screw students to do so.
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

JOEFRIDAY2 said:
About 4 hours ago, I received 163 pages of California modified text. Haven't had a chance to go through it yet.

Joe
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So what, are you one of their lawyers? Are you pushing some agenda on us?
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

mshunter said:
So what, are you one of their lawyers? Are you pushing some agenda on us?
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No agenda, all that I want is the student's flight school tuition protected.

Those that refuse to protect the student's flight school tuition are the ones with the agenda.

Think about it. Why would anyone not want the student's flight school tuition protected? Follow the money.

Joe
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

ChasenSFO said:
What does it matter what the state says? A CFI ticket is a CFI ticket, no matter if its from a 141 school or not.
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What matters is that parents will not want to send their sons and daughters to a "hobby school."

What matters is that the banks will not loan money, for career flight training, if you go to a "hobby school."

What matters is that the state of Arizona took this profession down several notches with this hobby school classification.

Joe
 
Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

JOEFRIDAY2 said:
What matters is that the banks will not loan money, for career flight training, if you go to a "hobby school."
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Perhaps that's a good thing, banks shouldn't be lending $60,000+ for someone to get 200 hours and a wet commercial ticket, and be basically unemployable. And even if they do end up with a aviation job, it won't pay enough to service their debt. They are a bad risk.

Borrowing money for any aviation training is never a great idea in my opinion.

"Career flight training" is a meaningless term anyway. The term only exists because of the marketing folks at big flight schools.
 
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