Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the State

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Perhaps that's a good thing, banks shouldn't be lending $60,000+ for someone to get 200 hours and a wet commercial ticket, and be basically unemployable. And even if they do end up with a aviation job, it won't pay enough to service their debt. They are a bad risk.

Borrowing money for any aviation training is never a great idea in my opinion.

"Career flight training" is a meaningless term anyway. The term only exists because of the marketing folks at big flight schools.

Well I'm going to have to disagree with you here on this one.

Most students that go to college or onto a higher education have student loans. It alows students to go to college that do not have the current means to pay for their education. Without student loans most students today could not go to college. Unfortunately that is a fact of life. Education costs money.

The student loans are an investment into the future earning power of a college or higher education student. The banks and the government expect that after the completion of the studies, the student will be in a position to get a job in their chosen field, make money and pay the loan back. There is nothing wrong with that.

In most cases this works out. A student goes to college and they receive their education and then get a job. They then pay back their student loan.

The problem, in the flight training industry, comes in when the bad guys steal the tuition money and do not get these kids their education or training.

The bad guys have figured out a very effective way to game the system and steal millions of dollars from the students. The students are the ones getting screwed here.

You can not expect an 18 year old student to be able to outsmart a con artist. That is why the tuition needs to be protected in the flight training industry. Tuition is protected everywhere else except for this industry. Why is this? What makes this industry the only one where tuition is not protected?

This takes millions of dollars OUT of aviation which is never recovered. That is money that could have been going to legitimate flight schools.

Joe

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Most students that go to college or onto a higher education have student loans. It alows students to go to college that do not have the current means to pay for their education. Without student loans most students today could not go to college. Unfortunately that is a fact of life. Education costs money.

An FAA Commercial Certificate is not a college degree.

And if someone really wants to fly, they can do what I and many others before me have done. Either join the military, or work and save until you can afford it.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Guys, these schools are only hobby schools if you're an illegal alien in AZ.

Read the law, people.

 

[Barty]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

If your very dear friend would drop his price to $2499 then he would be exempt.

The key here is that he can not collect over $2500 per student. The State of California did not put a time limit on the collection of the $2500 so as it stands right now, it is during a student's lifetime.

If he needs the extra dollar then he would need to be licensed and comply with the California law.

Joe

So without a time limit, that $2500 would cover the instruction for a PPL and part of the time for an instrument rating.

It is micro-managing regulations like this that have sent jobs packing out of states like Californina, and in some cases, even overseas. We've got to write laws these days that do nothing more than protect people from their own stupid decisions, like paying tens of thousands of dollars up front to a flight school.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

It is micro-managing regulations like this that have sent jobs packing out of states like Californina, and in some cases, even overseas. We've got to write laws these days that do nothing more than protect people from their own stupid decisions, like paying tens of thousands of dollars up front to a flight school.

There has been a trend in the US lately attempting to regulate away almost all counter party risk from just about everything. The economist in me thinks that this is misguided at best. The idea might sound good - having the government backstop credit losses. In practice, it just makes credit more expensive, and allows bad companies that should fail to continue operating.

It is a separate topic, that I don't think for-profit universities or vocational schools provide good value for their students. But it is a free country, and ultimately it is the responsibility of the students not to give their money to shaky businesses/schools, and take on the risk of becoming unsecured creditors.

This is not very different from the "moral hazard" you hear about with the bank bailouts - why should the good banks be forced to pay for the failures of the poor ones? It is really the same thing with what we are talking about in California/Arizona. Why should I, as a market participant in the flight training business, be bailing out the poor decisions of flight training students?

 

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Why should I, as a market participant in the flight training business, be bailing out the poor decisions of flight training students?

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Because thats the 'Murican way!

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Because thats the 'Murican way!

Let's not stop there -

We should put a tax on fuel-efficient cars to buy gas for people who can't afford their gas guzzlers.

We should put a tax on running shoes to pay for health care for people that don't exercise.

We should put a (another) tax on savings accounts and use money to bail out people who run up their credit cards.

We should put a tax on casinos to reimburse people that gamble away their houses.

My point is - where does it stop?

 

[WacoFan]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I'm still puzzled by who displays more stupidity, the students paying huge amounts of money up-front or the banks that make these loans so that someday, maybe the guy you financed will be able to have a job and pay it back.

The reason model-airplane glue is no good today is probably because some idiot ate some and died. So, because of an idiot we now have to have model airplane glue that sucks. Same deal here, do some research if you're the consumer.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

So without a time limit, that $2500 would cover the instruction for a PPL and part of the time for an instrument rating.

It is micro-managing regulations like this that have sent jobs packing out of states like Californina, and in some cases, even overseas. We've got to write laws these days that do nothing more than protect people from their own stupid decisions, like paying tens of thousands of dollars up front to a flight school.

The $2500 limit over the lifetime is something that I have suggested be changed to $2500 per 12 calendar months.

We would not need these laws if the bad guys had not stolen millions of dollars from students. Unfortunately the industry as a whole did nothing to stop it other than say, "buyer beware" and now we are where we are after three decades of this scam.

Personally I would be ok with making it illegal for any flight school to collect more than $1000 in advance from any student at any time. But I haven't seen any support for that suggestion.

Joe

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I'm still puzzled by who displays more stupidity, the students paying huge amounts of money up-front or the banks that make these loans so that someday, maybe the guy you financed will be able to have a job and pay it back.

Well, there is almost no risk to the banks. They lobbied Congress to get the bankruptcy code changed in 2005, so even private students loans can not be discharged in court. They will eventually be able to garnish wages and collect on defaulted loans, and they generally charge above-market interest for loans that have very little risk.

Most loans are insured by the government though, and the risk to banks is almost non-existent.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Not to mention the penalties and deferred interest while you couldn't pay. I know someone who owes 50,000 on a 12,000 loan now. And that is a regular student loan for college. The whole racket is criminal.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

The $2500 limit over the lifetime is something that I have suggested be changed to $2500 per 12 calendar months.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

This should only apply to those who's curriculum require collecting money UPFRONT! Maybe set the limit of $2500 up front, so the guy who wants to put $1000-2000 done on a block account won't screw the school up who does block accounts. Setting just a dollar cap is just as irresponsible as the guy who takes the money from a student and runs off with it. You have failed to see the big picture. It is completely possible to get a guy from PVT to Inst in less that 6 months. Before I quit instructing, I did it with a student. And I made about $4k instructing him. And I didn't collect a single dime up front. It's not the money thats the issue, it the collecting it up front that is.

FIX WHAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED, AND NOTHING MORE!

Why are all flight instructors being persecuted for something that large flight schools have done. Your doing nothing but shooting the messenger!

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

This should only apply to those who's curriculum require collecting money UPFRONT! Maybe set the limit of $2500 up front, so the guy who wants to put $1000-2000 done on a block account won't screw the school up who does block accounts. Setting just a dollar cap is just as irresponsible as the guy who takes the money from a student and runs off with it. You have failed to see the big picture. It is completely possible to get a guy from PVT to Inst in less that 6 months. Before I quit instructing, I did it with a student. And I made about $4k instructing him. And I didn't collect a single dime up front. It's not the money thats the issue, it the collecting it up front that is.

Why are all flight instructors being persecuted for something that large flight schools have done. Your doing nothing but shooting the messenger!

I've never had an instructor for longer than 1 rating. I liked it that way. More eyes telling me what I'm doing wrong or right.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I've never had an instructor for longer than 1 rating. I liked it that way. More eyes telling me what I'm doing wrong or right.

Well good for you. Nearly all of my students I had, stuck with me through all of their ratings. So your argument is void. I even had one guy, that paid for himself, his son and his father. I am not saying that something does not need to be done. But the bill is poorly written.

 

[RICHARD5]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I'm still puzzled by who displays more stupidity, the students paying huge amounts of money up-front or the banks that make these loans so that someday, maybe the guy you financed will be able to have a job and pay it back.

Based on my experience with 141 schools, I would answer your implied question as thus: the average student has stars in their eyes and want to beleive in the 'zero to hero' model. They become willing participants. With foriegn students it is even worse, they have invested a lot to come to the USA and may be under a time restriction to complete their studies. When a school asks for custody of the student's passport before training begins, among other nefarious behaviors, the student thinks nothing of it. (Custody of passport ensures the school will be paid 100% plus additonal monies.)

The reason model-airplane glue is no good today is probably because some idiot ate some and died. So, because of an idiot we now have to have model airplane glue that sucks. Same deal here, do some research if you're the consumer.

It's because in the drug-crazed 60s, kids hellbent to increase their stupidity and gulibility started to huff the modeling glue. My brothers and me were into model building for years prior. Imagine our astonishment and then disgust when we found out the real reason why we had to sign in order to buy modeling glue. With the capicity for reason, who could ever believe sniffing glue would not have immediate and lasting negative effects? I wonder how many of those folks are now in Congress or local govt?