Are you pros being paid appropriately?

trafficinsight said:
I think pilots are upset about wages in general but nobody tells mainline captains who got shafted to stop whining or quit.
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As ATN pointed out, the mainline pilot went into that job with the understanding that the contract would be a set wage, but then saw it reduced.
The regional pilot goes into the job- or at least should- knowing what it pays. Don't get me wrong. I am a regional pilot. But I knew what I was getting into. I am fighting for a better contract but I also understand that it is all business. I don't resent management- they have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. But I am going to fight for my fair share.
 
Blackhawk said:
As ATN pointed out, the mainline pilot went into that job with the understanding that the contract would be a set wage, but then saw it reduced.
The regional pilot goes into the job- or at least should- knowing what it pays. Don't get me wrong. I am a regional pilot. But I knew what I was getting into. I am fighting for a better contract but I also understand that it is all business. I don't resent management- they have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. But I am going to fight for my fair share.
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Then we feel the same way.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Yet, despite the big numbers, they want more out sourcing, and some like United are putting segment fees on pass travel for most eligibles to squeeze even more out of the mostly over-worked and under-paid employees as they deal with minimum staffing and the constant thread of their jobs going to Swissport or DGS.
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Hey man. Gotta make doze papez!
 
T/O w/FSII said:
The problem is airline wages based on seniority. Few professional industries reset your pay to intern level after a lateral move. Its crap.

Maybe pay should be based upon experience (hours, to start) like any other business?
But that'll never happen.
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Agreed. Honestly reason #1 far and away that I decided not to put all my eggs in that one basket.

The other day I watched a JustPlanes "flight in the cockpit" series inside the last 707 to be retired from the US back in 1999 shortly beforehand. It starts off on the walk around with a crusty old pilot who starts out by introducing himself with, "I've been in this flying business for a long time. Started out with Pan Am...and then off to Eastern...and then...it was off to the non scheduled carriers...and now..." and you could just see the pain in his eyes as he didn't even finish the sentence standing outside the Challenge Air Cargo plane with 3 stripes on his shoulders just before retirement. It was honestly depressing. If Google went down tomorrow, I doubt the majority of skilled workers would have trouble filling positions at other tech companies who would love to have them on board. But with the way this industry works, a seasoned 747 captain who was just laid off is likely going to find themselves competing with their coworkers to start over in the right seat on one of the lower paying frames at another major, or perhaps even back to a "commuter" as a street captain or into the right seat for the rest of their career.

Some like @DPApilot have the right combination of great networking and great timing and very quickly pay their dues and move onto good jobs in their early 20s, some like the guy above get absolutely chewed up and spit right out in the dirt when they hit a bump in the road(or two, or three) and none of the connections or experience in the world can replace their wages in an acceptable period of time. Good thing high QOL jobs seem to have plenty of time off, at least that gives everyone a fighting chance to have a side(or primary even) income.
 
Are we seriously having the woe is me thread again? The regionals are not the only way. It sucks if you go that route. You know it going in to that. Guys and gals, pull your bootstraps up. Either find another way, or stuck it up and get it done. Just keep flying, whatever you do.

Damned Delta, their delays, and some business class lounge and wine. :cool:
 
ChasenSFO said:
Agreed. Honestly reason #1 far and away that I decided not to put all my eggs in that one basket.

The other day I watched a JustPlanes "flight in the cockpit" series inside the last 707 to be retired from the US back in 1999 shortly beforehand. It starts off on the walk around with a crusty old pilot who starts out by introducing himself with, "I've been in this flying business for a long time. Started out with Pan Am...and then off to Eastern...and then...it was off to the non scheduled carriers...and now..." and you could just see the pain in his eyes as he didn't even finish the sentence standing outside the Challenge Air Cargo plane with 3 stripes on his shoulders just before retirement. It was honestly depressing. If Google went down tomorrow, I doubt the majority of skilled workers would have trouble filling positions at other tech companies who would love to have them on board. But with the way this industry works, a seasoned 747 captain who was just laid off is likely going to find themselves competing with their coworkers to start over in the right seat on one of the lower paying frames at another major, or perhaps even back to a "commuter" as a street captain or into the right seat for the rest of their career.

Some like @DPApilot have the right combination of great networking and great timing and very quickly pay their dues and move onto good jobs in their early 20s, some like the guy above get absolutely chewed up and spit right out in the dirt when they hit a bump in the road(or two, or three) and none of the connections or experience in the world can replace their wages in an acceptable period of time. Good thing high QOL jobs seem to have plenty of time off, at least that gives everyone a fighting chance to have a side(or primary even) income.
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Everyone in the 135 world should be at a respectable wage and QOL in their 20s if they want to. It won't match legacy pay, but you get there a lot quicker. Took me about 3 years and I didn't starve on the way there either. Aside from last year(my fault), I've never made less than 40k in aviation.
 
The seniority system is there for a reason. Though much of it is labor propaganda I think professional pilots should read "Flying the Line" so they have an idea of what things were like before the seniority system. Won't tow the company line? No problem. Hope you like being a career FO.
 
We hired a guy who did seven, yes SEVEN years as a regional FO, commuting to boot. He told me the 'normal' meal was a ramen sandwich. Two slices of cheap bread, add a brick of ramen, UN-COOKED, sprinkle Tabasco, enjoy. I can't believe he did it. I would've Slatered 100 times over. He would have upgraded, but couldn't do it anymore.

I just can't believe people are dumb enough to work for these crap wages.
 
cezzna said:
We hired a guy who did seven, yes SEVEN years as a regional FO, commuting to boot. He told me the 'normal' meal was a ramen sandwich. Two slices of cheap bread, add a brick of ramen, UN-COOKED, sprinkle Tabasco, enjoy. I can't believe he did it. I would've Slatered 100 times over. He would have upgraded, but couldn't do it anymore.

I just can't believe people are dumb enough to work for these crap wages.
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Well, I'm a nearly 8 year regional FO and I can happily report that I have never resorted to such nutritional means. Where did this guy work? Perhaps a better question is why he stayed at such a place for seven years instead of going someplace that could support proper nutritional intake.

Glad to see he is someplace else now though. Hopefully his eating habits have matured.
 
Blackhawk said:
The seniority system is there for a reason. Though much of it is labor propaganda I think professional pilots should read "Flying the Line" so they have an idea of what things were like before the seniority system. Won't tow the company line? No problem. Hope you like being a career FO.
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How's that different from the rest of corporate America? What do you think promotions are based on? It sure ain't seniority.

A seniority system allows the likes of the Colgan CA to get "his fair shot" at a seat he had no business being in. In a merit based environment, at least it can be prevented. Down side being, and this is the case for pilots today looking to get into management roles, they just become kiss-ass types and hang out at HQs all day long and next thing you know they are into management roles.

I'd like an Emirates style rotating-style category of bidding. Each pilot assigned into a Group A - Group F. Each group has ~300 pilots and within this group of 300, seniority rules. But the categories are all rotating every month, so this month A is #1, B is #2, etc. Then next month B is #1, C is #2, et, and A is #6 bottom. Rinse, repeat. This way at least the career would offer easy portability if you have to. Also spreads the pain around and would lead to a more united pilot group in terms of giving a crap about union things that affects everyone and not just throwing juniors under the bus.

I'd also do away with a 12 year scale. No reason for that. Payscale should be years 1-6 at most so if pilots do have to start again the pain is far lessened. I'd also push for a scale that is very close from year 1 to year x. Eg, Spirit ranges from $107 to $185 and that is far too much. Hawaiian has year 1 CA pay of $195 and year 12 CA pay of $199. This is how it should be, but just year 1 to year 6. The difference from year 1 to year 6 should be small.

It's ridiculous to think a guy could be an A320 CA today making $190k and then poof be jobless and have to start over as a RJ FO making $20k. No wonder so many American pilots have flocked overseas.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Because of safety.
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:rolleyes:

Seniority here goes against that concept.

Even from the third world country I'm from, the rules there follow seniority, but from a strict hierarchy. You go through FO on all seats, and then you can't be a widebody CA until you are a narrowbody CA and you can't be narrowbody until you've been a CA on a smaller commuter aircraft/propeller aircraft. So once a FO starts as a ATR FO, moves through A320/737, then to the 747/777. Then for upgrade, he has to go back to the ATR as CA, and then 320/737 as CA, and then finally 777/747 as CA. So this system ensures that every pilot who Captains an airliner already has time-in-type beforehand.

Where as here, you can be a 0 time CA straight into a Q400 off a Saab. Or from a 320 CA straight into a 777 left seat without ever having touched a 777 before. It's just one layer of safety removed. IMO, no one should be a CA on a jetliner unless said individual has time on that type jet in the right seat first. The safest thing would to be have PICs on a jet that have already been FOs on that same jet. Seniority goes against this concept, and honors the "get awarded whatever you can hold" so in that sense seniority does not look at safety.
 
Boris Badenov said:
That's the job of the training and checking system. Obviously, in Renslow's case, it failed. This has absolutely nothing to do with the seniority system.
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Partially true. The seniority system allowed him to become a Captain on an airliner he had 0 time in. That is a flaw of the unlimited seniority system "bid what you can hold." See above post for safer alternative.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
:rolleyes: Seniority here goes against that concept. Even from the third world country I'm from, the rules there follow seniority, but from a strict hierarchy. You go through FO on all seats, and then you can't be a widebody CA until you are a narrowbody CA and you can't be narrowbody until you've been a CA on a smaller commuter aircraft/propeller aircraft. So once a FO starts as a ATR FO, moves through A320/737, then to the 747/777. Then for upgrade, he has to go back to the ATR as CA, and then 320/737 as CA, and then finally 777/747 as CA. So this system ensures that every pilot who Captains an airliner already has time-in-type beforehand. Where as here, you can be a 0 time CA straight into a Q400 off a Saab. Or from a 320 CA straight into a 777 left seat without ever having touched a 777 before. It's just one layer of safety removed. IMO, no one should be a CA on a jetliner unless said individual has time on that type jet in the right seat first. The safest thing would to be have PICs on a jet that have already been FOs on that same jet. Seniority goes against this concept, and honors the "get awarded whatever you can hold" so in that sense seniority does not look at safety.
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I'm not surprised you think that, seeing as how you've never been a captain and don't have the slightest clue what command is all about.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not surprised you think that, seeing as how you've never been a captain and don't have the slightest clue what command is all about.
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It's not just me thinking that, it is other countries' civil aviation authority (CAA) that actually mandates as such. And it's more than just one country.

Nice jab with the no Captain comment. Those CAA authority figures made the rules, not me, so clearly I'm not alone in that thought process. Also, your personal jab just goes to show that Captaincy has zero to do with skill (so as long as you pass training and checking events, line checks, afterall that's how MC became and was a Captain at Pinnacle) and instead has everything to do with seniority and timing.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Zing!

Operating the appliance is something you should learn in training. Being a good Captain has almost nothing to do with avionics or stick and rudder.
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No one said anything about what makes a good Captain. We were talking about layers of safety. Operating the appliance in training is one thing. On the line is totally different and you know it (assuming you're at a Part 121 airline).

Anyway, clearly several country's Civil Aviation Authority disagrees enough with you that they dictate those rules mentioned above.


What's your argument against it? The "safest" thing would be to have a CA who was already a line FO on that type so he knows the ins/outs and the particulars of that particular aircraft. What's your argument against this? Cue the "but it's my seniority and that gives me my right!" :rolleyes:
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It's not just me thinking that, it is other countries' civil aviation authority (CAA) that actually mandates as such.
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Yeah, when you're crazy enough to allow 250 wonders to fly 777s, you probably need to do that.
 
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