AOPA will never get another dime from me

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Velocipede said:
Any airline pilot who supports AOPA is just saying his hobby is more important than his job. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just seems their priorities are misplaced.
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What is unrestricted GA Velo?


Is it anyone who doesn't fly for a major or regional?

Does your CFI who is training your future FO fall into unrestricted GA? Because AOPA is doing a hell of a lot for that guy, giving that CFI resource he previously wouldn't have access to, to include CRM, Airspace, Operations in the Class Bravo.
 
mjg407 said:
What is unrestricted GA Velo?


Is it anyone who doesn't fly for a major or regional?

Does your CFI who is training your future FO fall into unrestricted GA? Because AOPA is doing a hell of a lot for that guy, giving that CFI resource he previously wouldn't have access to, to include CRM, Airspace, Operations in the Class Bravo.
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Me thinks that Velo would like to seriously limit the numbers of "future FO's" coming into the business...and those that do coming from the military. Just my impression.

Wonder how user fees would effect Ag flying?
 
Received another piece of trash from AOPA yesterday.

AOPA members, please, call them and tell them to stop wasting your money on sending out literature to people who canceled their membership.

We're not coming back.
 
surreal1221 said:
Received another piece of trash from AOPA yesterday.

AOPA members, please, call them and tell them to stop wasting your money on sending our literature to people who canceled their membership.

We're not coming back.
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Sadly, someone with much more financial acumen than either of us has determined that it's cost effective to clog the postal system with "THIS IS YOUR 10th WARNING, THE HUNS ARE AT THE GATES" bs. Somewhere out there some clown is picking up his 10th warning and thinking "Oh noes, if I don't pay my dues, I won't be able to take Curly and Moe out to watch the leaves change colors anymore!"

Supporting a corrupt, paid-for lobbying group that claims to represent your interests against another corrupt, paid-for lobbying group is kind of like marrying the first girl you somehow manage to screw after you get dumped (or so I've heard...Obviously that's never happened to me). It feels righteous and good at the time, but you're still going to wake up one morning and realize that you've made a horrible mistake.

Take a long, hard look at who AOPA is really working for. I'd venture to say it isn't anyone on this message board. Maybe your boss, but even that is a longshot given the demographics here.

I respect the EAA, but even they are still a political animal. If you really support GA and the American Way (tm) of self-sufficiency and building crazy stuff in your backyard at the risk of your health, consider investing your money and time in political causes that reduce state instrusion in how you spend your time and restore the particular American brand of freedom to the political process. We shouldn't need to spend our time arguing about which lobbyist most deserves our labor lining their pockets. There is another way. See sig file for details.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Sadly, someone with much more financial acumen than either of us has determined that it's cost effective to clog the postal system with "THIS IS YOUR 10th WARNING, THE HUNS ARE AT THE GATES" bs. Somewhere out there some clown is picking up his 10th warning and thinking "Oh noes, if I don't pay my dues, I won't be able to take Curly and Moe out to watch the leaves change colors anymore!"

Supporting a corrupt, paid-for lobbying group that claims to represent your interests against another corrupt, paid-for lobbying group is kind of like marrying the first girl you somehow manage to screw after you get dumped (or so I've heard...Obviously that's never happened to me). It feels righteous and good at the time, but you're still going to wake up one morning and realize that you've made a horrible mistake.

Take a long, hard look at who AOPA is really working for. I'd venture to say it isn't anyone on this message board. Maybe your boss, but even that is a longshot given the demographics here.

I respect the EAA, but even they are still a political animal. If you really support GA and the American Way (tm) of self-sufficiency and building crazy stuff in your backyard at the risk of your health, consider investing your money and time in political causes that reduce state instrusion in how you spend your time and restore the particular American brand of freedom to the political process. We shouldn't need to spend our time arguing about which lobbyist most deserves our labor lining their pockets. There is another way. See sig file for details.
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lol

Okay Boris. Thanks.
 
Velocipede said:
I'm just not a fan of unrestricted GA.
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I am a total fan of unrestricted GA.

Here's what I propose as a trade off to fund the ATC system.

Allow the airlines to schedule all the flights into any airport they want under the following rules:

1) The maximum total number of 121 operations into the airport is restricted by the maximum operations per hour of the least efficient runway configuration at the lowest available weather minimums for that airport.

2) For each flight scheduled on top of the above, up to the maximum number of operations allowable for the optimum runway configurations in optimum weather, the first operation will be charged a $10,000 operation premium, and a 5% increase for each operation beyond that raising the fee for each. For the purposes of this an "operation" will be a landing followed by a takeoff on the same day.

3) For each operation scheduled beyond the maximum operation as stated above, the first operation will be $50,000 increased by 5% for each subsequent operation. Again, the same definition for "operation" shall apply.

4) For delays caused by operations under rules 2 or 3, a $1,000/min penalty will be assigned.

5) Airlines that currently use the airport as a "hub operation" will retain that right and assigned the current percentage of usage for that airport. Remaining slots will be equally distributed among air carriers desiring use of the airport.

a) As an example, if Delta makes up 80% of the operations for ATL and AirTran uses 10%, then the remaining 5% will be distributed among the other air carrier. Foreign Air Carriers are exempt, but the operations will be counted in the airport's total.

b) Using a) as an example, if the total number of operations exceed the number specified in paragraph 1, a "snap shot" will be taken of all scheduled operations to that airport from June 10th, 2007 for the "summer schedules" and November 22, 2007 for the "winter schedules". Then the percentages will locked in at that point.

1) Air Carriers wishing to renounce a hub, will do so in writing, giving 90 days notice. Such notice may not be rescinded, and the percentages will be re-adjusted, first right of refusal for slots will be to another incumbent hub aircarrier. If that air carrier declines, or there is only one "hub air carrier" in the airport, all the slots will be equally divided among the other air carriers.

2) Any Air Carrier wishing to utilize Rule 2 or 3 will do so in writing, with a minimum of 120 days notice. Understanding that forecasted schedules are proprietary and competitive information, the information will not be made public. However, on the first day that the service is to begin, the fines will be enacted with no "trial period" as to avoid "Gaming the system"

c) For purposes of this distribution, "Air Carrier" will include all operations of a "Brand" e.g. American slots in ATL would encompass any and all operations of American, American Eagle or American Connection, or any other d.b.a situation for American. If an independent carrier, such as Horizon, has a code-sharing agreement, where the American name is not used, and marketing is not conducted by AMR, or any subsidary, then Horizon will not be penalized for the codeshare.

I think that'd clean up alot of the mess.
 
As someone who has spent a tremendous amount of time with AOPA and their employees and at their headquarters. I can personally vouch for what an excellent organization they are. They have a great variety of experienced pepole working from them ranging from private pilots to retired airline pilots, from nurses to aviation lawyers, who are ready to fight and answer any question brought to the general aviation world ranging from getting you back your medical after major surgery to local governments threatening airport closures.

You have a problem or issue, they will help you! I've been a member 7 years and do not regret a dime I have given them
 
Seggy I didn't expect this from you man!

Just because some idiot said something about this matter and meanwhile worked at one of the only organizational bodies still alive protecting GA then you can't just say hey don't join or donate to AOPA because of one man's remarks.


I mean I am not in your shoes as a professional pilot but aren't you supposed to be just a little bit more patient and understanding of any situation because you are in the Trade. Don't get me wrong my blood boils when I hear that idiot's comments but I am not gonna turn my face away from AOPA and as you say join EAA because they haven't yet hired some moron who will say smt like that.

I truly believe in helping people or organizations that are trying to keep GA alive and smt like this can not have a decision changing effect on me.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Sadly, someone with much more financial acumen than either of us has determined that it's cost effective to clog the postal system with "THIS IS YOUR 10th WARNING, THE HUNS ARE AT THE GATES" bs. Somewhere out there some clown is picking up his 10th warning and thinking "Oh noes, if I don't pay my dues, I won't be able to take Curly and Moe out to watch the leaves change colors anymore!"

Supporting a corrupt, paid-for lobbying group that claims to represent your interests against another corrupt, paid-for lobbying group is kind of like marrying the first girl you somehow manage to screw after you get dumped (or so I've heard...Obviously that's never happened to me). It feels righteous and good at the time, but you're still going to wake up one morning and realize that you've made a horrible mistake.

Take a long, hard look at who AOPA is really working for. I'd venture to say it isn't anyone on this message board. Maybe your boss, but even that is a longshot given the demographics here.

I respect the EAA, but even they are still a political animal. If you really support GA and the American Way (tm) of self-sufficiency and building crazy stuff in your backyard at the risk of your health, consider investing your money and time in political causes that reduce state instrusion in how you spend your time and restore the particular American brand of freedom to the political process. We shouldn't need to spend our time arguing about which lobbyist most deserves our labor lining their pockets. There is another way. See sig file for details.
Click to expand...

Marketing 302 - second semester. Education is a powerful thing, believe me. More of a reason why pilots should be diverse in their educational backgrounds! :D
 
Polar742 said:
I am a total fan of unrestricted GA.

Here's what I propose as a trade off to fund the ATC system.

Allow the airlines to schedule all the flights into any airport they want under the following rules:

1) The maximum total number of 121 operations into the airport is restricted by the maximum operations per hour of the least efficient runway configuration at the lowest available weather minimums for that airport.

2) For each flight scheduled on top of the above, up to the maximum number of operations allowable for the optimum runway configurations in optimum weather, the first operation will be charged a $10,000 operation premium, and a 5% increase for each operation beyond that raising the fee for each. For the purposes of this an "operation" will be a landing followed by a takeoff on the same day.

3) For each operation scheduled beyond the maximum operation as stated above, the first operation will be $50,000 increased by 5% for each subsequent operation. Again, the same definition for "operation" shall apply.

4) For delays caused by operations under rules 2 or 3, a $1,000/min penalty will be assigned.

5) Airlines that currently use the airport as a "hub operation" will retain that right and assigned the current percentage of usage for that airport. Remaining slots will be equally distributed among air carriers desiring use of the airport.

a) As an example, if Delta makes up 80% of the operations for ATL and AirTran uses 10%, then the remaining 5% will be distributed among the other air carrier. Foreign Air Carriers are exempt, but the operations will be counted in the airport's total.

b) Using a) as an example, if the total number of operations exceed the number specified in paragraph 1, a "snap shot" will be taken of all scheduled operations to that airport from June 10th, 2007 for the "summer schedules" and November 22, 2007 for the "winter schedules". Then the percentages will locked in at that point.

1) Air Carriers wishing to renounce a hub, will do so in writing, giving 90 days notice. Such notice may not be rescinded, and the percentages will be re-adjusted, first right of refusal for slots will be to another incumbent hub aircarrier. If that air carrier declines, or there is only one "hub air carrier" in the airport, all the slots will be equally divided among the other air carriers.

2) Any Air Carrier wishing to utilize Rule 2 or 3 will do so in writing, with a minimum of 120 days notice. Understanding that forecasted schedules are proprietary and competitive information, the information will not be made public. However, on the first day that the service is to begin, the fines will be enacted with no "trial period" as to avoid "Gaming the system"

c) For purposes of this distribution, "Air Carrier" will include all operations of a "Brand" e.g. American slots in ATL would encompass any and all operations of American, American Eagle or American Connection, or any other d.b.a situation for American. If an independent carrier, such as Horizon, has a code-sharing agreement, where the American name is not used, and marketing is not conducted by AMR, or any subsidary, then Horizon will not be penalized for the codeshare.

I think that'd clean up alot of the mess.
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I like this idea - particularly the penalties for operation delays. I would set up a pure auction. X amount of slots into JFK, here are the times, and let the airlines bid on those, winner take all and the winners can pass that on to the customers in the ticket price.

Airlines seem to be loathe to raise ticket prices. Cut expenses to the bone, but for God sake, don't charge people more. That needs to change. The ATC system allows the airlines to be in business in their current, unregulated form - they simply couldn't exist without it. Everyone that draws a paycheck at a 121 carrier owes their existence to the system, and the true users of the system are the passengers on the airliners. Therefore - they should pay. As I said before, GA could exist just fine without anyone ever flying into Newark, JFK, ATL, DFW, or LAX, or even without anyone flying IFR. Since GA could survive without the air traffic control system, it leads me to believe that the 121 carriers are the true beneficiary of this system and user fees are simply a bailout/subsidy under another name. The passengers should pay, with the airlines collecting those taxes in the ticket prices and forwarding them on to the government.

Cue Velo talking about "the fat cats" in their Gulfstreams, but I would imagine that if GA grounded itself for a day there would still be massive delays at the hub airports. Velo's response of helping the "fat cats" is a canard using class warfare to deflect from the true issue of increased governmental control of our lives by taxing undesirable things (like GA) out of existence. A typical democrat trick.
 
Love all the Velo hate speak. Who is talking about user fees? You GA types are.

I'm not suggesting user fees to limit GA, though I AM in favor of them.

Perhaps just restricting GA from Class B airspace and airports served by airlines would do the same thing. The LGB midair is an outstanding example of why GA should be kept away from airline approach corridors.

You all remember San Diego and Cerritos don't you?
 
Velocipede said:
The LGB midair is an outstanding example of why GA should be kept away from airline approach corridors.
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Now what exactly is an "airline approach corridor"? You mean the STAR for the airport that GA airplanes should be using too? The 30 mile radius that they are vectored in near a class C airport? Get real.





I'll also say this, when there is a close call between an airliner and a GA airplane, it's not always the GA planes fault. Trust me on that one.
 
Here you go. Insults, misrepresentations, and denigrations. But, I guess as long as its directed at someone who is not "approved" its all good.

darrenf said:
91-polarbear-facepalm_%28nomdeprun%29.jpg
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Insult.

stesta5074 said:
Even if you occasionally run into an errant GA guy; everyone, including you, makes mistakes. This is aviation snobbery and I won't stand for it :)
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Insult.

OldTownPilot said:
He's talking more about the "airline management" agenda, than the "airline pilot" agenda. He must thing that what is good for management is good for pilots.
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Misrepresentation.

WacoFan said:
Me thinks that Velo would like to seriously limit the numbers of "future FO's" coming into the business...and those that do coming from the military. Just my impression.
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Misrepresentation.

WacoFan said:
Cue Velo talking about "the fat cats" in their Gulfstreams...Velo's response of helping the "fat cats" is a canard using class warfare to deflect from the true issue of increased governmental control of our lives by taxing undesirable things (like GA) out of existence. A typical democrat trick.
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Insult,misrepresentation and denigration at one fell swoop. A threefer!

Wow! The gloves come off when someone thinks THEIR particular ox is about to be gored. And its obviously difficult to recognize the offenses when you agree with the posters I reckon.
 
...Not to mention how your "popularity" has transcended other threads TOTALLY unrelated to user fees. Face it, V, you're not one of the "cool kids." :D
 
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