AOPA Rod Machado article

[swisspilot]

I think we should wash people out of civilian flight training who aren't hacking it to standard, instead of keeping them on as professional students simply because they keep merrily paying the bill with a plethora of $$$; as some places I've seen do.

I totally agree, especially in 141 schools this things happen all the time....that said and having flown in flight schools around the world I can say that the FAA standards are pretty high, you would be surprised but in most places there is no such thing as +/- 100 feet, it`s at discretion of Ck airman...the PTS is really an amazing tool....

 

[ghoster]

back in the day, I got my PPL in 1970, 10 hrs to solo was the target from the get go. The entire pre-solo focus was basic flying skills, steep turns, stalls, slow flight and of course touch and gos. At about 8hrs, we did spins with 3 full turns before recovery. This was in a C-150 in El Paso in the SUMMER. When my instructor (who always referred to me as the "ham handed gorilla") cut me loose for my solo, it was no big deal to do it. The only thing I remember about it was the big smile on my face when I was downwind on my second of three touch and gos realizing that I could fly this damn thing!
Really though, no one ever forgets that first solo. It was so great.

 

[Roger, Roger]

back in the day, I got my PPL in 1970, 10 hrs to solo was the target from the get go. The entire pre-solo focus was basic flying skills, steep turns, stalls, slow flight and of course touch and gos. At about 8hrs, we did spins with 3 full turns before recovery. This was in a C-150 in El Paso in the SUMMER. When my instructor (who always referred to me as the "ham handed gorilla") cut me loose for my solo, it was no big deal to do it. The only thing I remember about it was the big smile on my face when I was downwind on my second of three touch and gos realizing that I could fly this damn thing!
Really though, no one ever forgets that first solo. It was so great.

See that really, is what I think Mr. Machado was getting at in his article-a return to the basics. He uses an example of one large pilot mill (didn't say which one) that has students flying an ILS in the pre-solo phase.

 

[tlewis95]

+1 for the Decathlon idea.

My summer instructing job usually involves teaching a few primary students from scratch in either the C140 or Cub that we have. This Summer, we had two initial solos in the 140. I also try to expose all of my students to spins, and actual IMC (just a tenth or two) in their pre-private training.

That being said, I am definitely against using glass for primary instruction. There is just too much going on inside the cockpit to distract the student from the stick and rudder skills.

Also +1 for making it harder in general to get through to 141 university-like curriculum. They way that most of them are set-up now, slipping through the cracks could be pretty easy. I feel that someone should fail out of the program if they need all 4 of the retakes (or more?) that some schools allow before failing and having to retake a flight course.

 

[Fly_Unity]

See that really, is what I think Mr. Machado was getting at in his article-a return to the basics. He uses an example of one large pilot mill (didn't say which one) that has students flying an ILS in the pre-solo phase.

Is there really a program that has students shooting ILS approaches before soloing?

Really though, I think 10 hours is to low in todays environment for most people. Maybe it wasnt in the 50's when Americans all had a mechanical mindset and drove tractors and other equipment. In todays world, few people have that mindset. Now days its more of an electronic mindset.

Also with how expensive General Aviation is now days its a different story. 30 years ago if you ground looped or flipped the airplane you fixed it with duct tape and kept going. Now days, Its a very expensive deal with a prop strike, insurance goes up, FAA gets involved in anything, Airplane has damage history making it worthless. Insurance wont allow low time time pilots solo taildraggers unless you pay them a thousands. The list goes on.

Airtraffic control has little tolerance in busy airspace to mess with a guy with only 10 hours in a pattern. FAA Examiners and DE's are stricter following PTS standards that a private pilots license is no longer a license to learn. Less people are learning to fly for the fun of it, but rather as a career.

Sure it would be nice if every student learns to fly in a Super Cub, Spins on private checkrides, all dirt strips, no GPS, land where ever you want, and the Airlines all used DC-3's, However, in todays world thats not going to be possible. Looking down memory lane, the 50's are enticing no matter what career your in.

In 50 years from now Im hoping General Aviation will still exist. Students may get their private pilots license in 737 simulator.

 

[z987k]

Letourneau is considering a change away from G1000 C172s back to Decathalons for primary students. It will be intersting to see how that works out.

Personally I love the idea.

I've never heard of the place, but if they do primary in decathlons, I would totally recommended this place to people. Imagine, developing good stick and rudder skills for primary training.

 

[mshunter]

Bring spins back to the PPL training, and make them demonstrated for the CFI practical test, and required before the solo. It doesn't matter what kind of airplane it's done in, as long as a student understands how the airplane operates, what should it matter. IMHO, if you spin a person with a few hours under there belt, it will set the ones who have more than a healthy fear of flying running for the hills, and those who should actually be pilots in the left seat. What I'm getting at, is it keeps those who may freeze in a panic situation out of the cockpit.


Edit to add: I remember a guy who was training with me who was scared to death of stalls and dropping a wing. One day in a 150 he crossed the controls the wrong way in a stall and we started to spin. I reached up and grabbed the controls and locked them there to let it develop. I looked over at him, "Remember P.A.R.E.?" I told him to take his time with it or I would hold the spin. Wouldn't you know, he asked to climb back up to altitude and do it some more.........

 

[z987k]

Bring spins back to the PPL training, and make them demonstrated for the CFI practical test, and required before the solo. It doesn't matter what kind of airplane it's done in, as long as a student understands how the airplane operates, what should it matter. IMHO, if you spin a person with a few hours under there belt, it will set the ones who have more than a healthy fear of flying running for the hills, and those who should actually be pilots in the left seat. What I'm getting at, is it keeps those who may freeze in a panic situation out of the cockpit.

When did they take this out anyways? I got my ppl in 2006 and spin training was part of the syllabusss (and still is as far as I know) at the 141 school I did it at.
BTW, it was also the most fun I'd had in an airplane to that point and what made me go get a tailwheel and acro.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Is there really a program that has students shooting ILS approaches before soloing?

You know, I really don't know. I was hoping someone else had read the article and could comment on what they thought of it. I don't normally pay much attention to, well, anything in the AOPA mag but that article caught my attention because the very topic had come up on here sometime in the not-too-distant past.

 

[Fly_Unity]

When did they take this out anyways? I got my ppl in 2006 and spin training was part of the syllabusss (and still is as far as I know) at the 141 school I did it at.
BTW, it was also the most fun I'd had in an airplane to that point and what made me go get a tailwheel and acro.

They took it out around 1949 I believe. Although there are still quite a few schools that still include it with their 61 or 141 programs. Boss wants me to quit because they are hard on gyros

 

[z987k]

very hard on gyros, lol.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Studley’s minimalist syllabus outline shows instructors how to do this. He recommends the first 10 flight hours be spent on taxiing, straight flying, turns, glides, slow flight, stalls and spins, S-turns, emergencies, spirals, takeoffs, approaches, and landings. An instructor can provide additional training as required, based on the environment or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Wait...what are you guys teaching in the first 10 hours anyway?

By the way...got this lovely device for learning how to use those complicated panels without running the money meter—it's called a GPU...

 

[at1024]

My school's syllabus calls for the first solo after completion of stage 1 at a MINIMUM of 27 hours. Keep in mind these are Chinese students and I know for a fact that one of my students has never even driven a car!

 

[lhornaday]

The ILS during pre-solo phase must be from one of the combined IFR and private pilot courses (or maybe a creative CFI stretching his time on the clock)

With advances in technology - there is, and will be for the foreseeable future - a debate on the order of things to learn. But I think it is important to avoid the cookie-cutter mentality of pilot training. It's a business of different individuals and goals.

 

[Douglas]

I'd be more than receptive to new ideas.

I don't think we have a horrible system, but this one-size-fits-all training is kind of a square peg in a round hole.

-----

In reference to de-automating the primary trainer:
I'm in favor of it in the first three hours of training, and not just avionics.
I take away the steam gauges too and work on turns, climbs and descents for three hours (Pattern work in there too).
I know, I know, "BORING!"
But, I have seen nothing but positive results in the long run when a student can actually use his feet and feel when that his back is twisting in a turn.

It sounds to simple to be true, but establish a good flying foundation, set them off on a good foot and the rest easier for everybody.
I dare say more enjoyable, too.

I'm in favor of the decathlon idea.

 

[A150K]

+1 for the Decathlon idea.


That being said, I am definitely against using glass for primary instruction. There is just too much going on inside the cockpit to distract the student from the stick and rudder skills.

.

+1

 

[swisspilot]

Does anybody can post the article?

I would like to read it, I live abroad....

Thank you

 

[Hacker15e]

BUT... To introduce aerobatic training into a private pilot syllabus you have to first focus on spin entry & recovery. First you need qualified instructors who don't crap their pants and take the controls every time their student lets a wing drop during a stall exercise. Next you need students willing to go through the spin, unusual attitude, & acro training. This isn't the military where either you perform or you're cut. There's plenty of good sticks out there who just cant handle it. Either they get sick or decide being upside-down is not for them. If anything, I'm in favor of practical spin recovery training to be part of the private syllabus. Completion standards should be maintaining orientation with a recovery on heading.

You are completely right...but the fact that we even have to say this, IMHO, is evidence enough that we as pilots have allowed the train to jump the tracks. The fact that we HAVE instructors who literally freak out when you get to 90 degrees of bank is just not right, IMHO.

Overall, I think we've tried to "dumb down" flying over the last 40-50 years -- to make an inherently 3D enterprise into something more akin to a 2D concept like driving. I understand completely that 99.9% of flying CAN be done without ever having been up on your back, but I think we lose a lot in terms of general airmanship by not doing basic acro. Of course we're not training people to go out and be IAC champions, but the confidence they get out of basic acro is the EXACT SAME idea as teaching stalls.

We teach stalls so that when a solo student screws up and gets into a bad place in the flight envelope, they can recognize what a stall looks like and have some idea as to how to get out of it safely. IMHO, we should teach that same recognition for being upside down, under G or whatever.

Ultimately, we know this is about money. To promote and continue aviation, we need to make sure it is accessible to as many people as possible. That means doing things like what Machado is talking about; cutting down as much superfluous junk in the training program. There is not unlimited time and money, and in order to keep as many people possible involved in GA flying, things that don't apply 99.9% of the time get cut. Yes, I know acro is one of those things...but it doesn't stop me from thinking that it is still VERY important.

Maybe I'd simply like to see acro as a required element in a commercial syllabus, so that everyone who is hauling people around for a living is familiar with being inverted and under G.

Either way, I'd love to start a flight school program where we start in taildraggers, and are doing BASIC acro right from the beginning. That way it's not some mystical thing that a pilot might get to go see someday, he knows what it's about right from the beginning.

 

[derg]

It all comes down to money.

Training Institution A has a comprehensive training problem that goes above and beyond the PTS for $X

Training Institution B has a basic training program that solely meets PTS for $X-Y

Training Institution A is declared a "rip off" and Training Institution B is declared clearly superior, although the products differ.

 

[BeRich]

Either way, I'd love to start a flight school program where we start in taildraggers, and are doing BASIC acro right from the beginning. That way it's not some mystical thing that a pilot might get to go see someday, he knows what it's about right from the beginning.

I agree, that would be a great idea. I'm a pvt student, and I would certainly be open to going there...When learning the basics of flying, which is obviously what the private is for, it seems like a good idea to start from the basics, which would be with taildraggers, not the G1000 172s that I've seen. I flew my first 4 or so hours with a G1000, and then switched to steam, and it has been a lot easier for me to focus on the important things, and get my eyes back out of the airplane as soon as possible, using steam. One thing I noticed is that it's a lot easier to find the info you need quickly while using a steam than using glass, where you have to search the whole screen to find what you want.